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Old 01-09-2008, 01:23 PM   #721
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Default a123 cells

Someone must own stock in a123. The a123 cells are 3.3v, so 2x3.3=6.6v. How would you use the a123 cells along with the nimh cells? That alone makes the a123 unworkable. Then add that 2xa123 cells are longer than a nimh stick or side by side pack and that makes them unworkable. Then add that only 1 or 2 people max are pushing for the a123 cells. It makes no sense why they are even mentioned in the same arguments as lipo.

I also don't get the square peg and round hole problem. Lipo packs fit into nimh spaces, so what is the problem? You want a lipo pack that has round humps top and bottom? Are people fascinated by round cells and can't get their minds around a square pack?

People that haven't tried lipo are frankly not qualified to dismiss them as a solution to battery issues. Try one for a few races, then dismiss them. Lipo isn't about going faster, it's about 80% less battery effort, and 80% less cost.

This thread isn't even about batteries.
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Old 01-09-2008, 01:39 PM   #722
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Well with BL comes the lipos as the rules are being developed for both tech as we speak.

I am curious as to what "issues" the current NiMh have. I guess I do not see the issues with brushed motors as well.

The current crop of brushed motors are so awesome and now everyone likes the head ache of BL. (yes I said it read the Jim Deiter thread!!!)

I think we R/C's like pain or something!
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Old 01-09-2008, 02:23 PM   #723
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Someone must own stock in a123. The a123 cells are 3.3v, so 2x3.3=6.6v. How would you use the a123 cells along with the nimh cells? That alone makes the a123 unworkable. Then add that 2xa123 cells are longer than a nimh stick or side by side pack and that makes them unworkable. Then add that only 1 or 2 people max are pushing for the a123 cells. It makes no sense why they are even mentioned in the same arguments as lipo.

I also don't get the square peg and round hole problem. Lipo packs fit into nimh spaces, so what is the problem? You want a lipo pack that has round humps top and bottom? Are people fascinated by round cells and can't get their minds around a square pack?

People that haven't tried lipo are frankly not qualified to dismiss them as a solution to battery issues. Try one for a few races, then dismiss them. Lipo isn't about going faster, it's about 80% less battery effort, and 80% less cost.

This thread isn't even about batteries.
Directly or indirectly, unfortunately they are associated, as the same group that is pushing for brushless are the same people that are strong supporters for the LiPo. I have no problem with either of these BUT, even you Bill, are trying to get the weight break changed, and since this will all be mandated by ROAR, thus, the discussion. With a weight break adjustment to a lighter weight all we have done is made the classess that we are trying to slow down, faster again, so then the whole motor issue has to be re-examined. Now add to this that the want to re-engineer to conform to another battery standard, will only cost all us more money, if it where to go to that extreme.

Now I'm not sure if your wishes are that extreme Bill, as far as chassis design goes, if all where to agree on the simple idea of either battery and leave the weight break alone, then I think it would be the best for both.

And yes, I read the other arguement about a heavier car breaks more parts, and I don't believe that should even be a consideration that ROAR should have to worry about.
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Old 01-09-2008, 02:29 PM   #724
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Forgive me for intruding on this thread...I read the first ten pages and then skipped to the last one

I know this is an onroad thread and there is a thread similar to this in offroad, but I thought I'd post this here:

A key difference I see between onroad and offroad electric is in how classes are divided. Since there are only 2 chassis (touring and 1/12) for onroad, more classes are created by having different power limitations. In offroad, there are several chassis so there are usually only stock and mod to help keep the number of racers in each class respectable.

From what I've read, it seems that 17.5, 10.5, and mod/open are the 3 forerunners for onroad classes. While this works well in onroad as the 13.5 is too fast/close to the 10.5, there are severe shortcomings for the offroad crowd. 17.5 is simply too slow for 2wd offroad vehicles.

A local offroad indoor track allows 17.5 motors to be run in the stock class and people are happy for the most part. While lower in power, this works at this track because it is too small for stock motors to wind out. At outdoor tracks this would not do justice for the typical layout.
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Old 01-09-2008, 02:43 PM   #725
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23650, and 18650 are the generic industry term named to the cylindrical cell sizes. it does not mean that a lipo couldn't be packaged in such the same way, or that other chemistries couldn't be made flat. Other chemistries just use a heave metal jacket and cylindrical is easier to manufacture for that.
but of course is then heavier.

need to separate the physical terms from the chemistry terms

problem with any of the 65mm cells is there are only 67mm (if i recall correctly) in my 12th scale chassis, and a bit less in all my TCs and definitely my off-roads. Which would require me to turn the cells and call for a chassis redesign to drop the cells lower in that round state.

otherwise my flat pack will already have a lower cg.

thats the main difference without taking in the different chemistries.
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Old 01-09-2008, 02:55 PM   #726
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[QUOTE=convikt;4055895]
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Originally Posted by sportpak View Post

so what happens when I show up with a Losi as well
Wrestlemania XXXL



Seriously, I vote the 17.5/10.5/Mod class separation for onroad. Lipo should be held to a 5000mah max capacity, fused, hard case, and certified for air travel. Being super picky on case size or shape is a waste of energy. There are more then a few that meet high standards that have been molded to fit as closely as possible to a NIMh battery. I think the standard package has risen to the top.
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Old 01-09-2008, 03:25 PM   #727
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"Not much left to do"

You know what the real problem is with this whole debate? We're trying to come up with a slower concept for a more low speed class. None of us are noobs, it's hard to really get into that mindset and decide what is going to make for a ROAR class that is fast, fun, and at the very least a good place to start. Yet still allow good competition for people with some experience.

Why have we decided that the noobs need to be coddled on such a pitiful level that we don't even want them to suffer and learn and grow for a few months or years while enjoying the hobby. Where is the sense of accomplishment if you win your very first time out? Not everybody gets to win, not everybody is going to ever be in an A-main.

There's also nothing that says Noobs can't start out in mod. There are also noobs that just don't care about the classes and want to haul-ass regardless of the outcome. Just because we don't think it's a wise idea, doesn't mean they agree.

Nobody has much of a beef with mod. Some mid-speed class is pretty much handled. At this point, regardless of on-road or offroad, we just need to iron out a path for the slowest of the classes. Sadly, to all of us, like it or not, it would sure appear that the most griping at any event is with the drivers in 27turn stock. It's labor intensive to do VERY WELL, but noobs mistake the motor as being the reason they are a few laps down, so it's really not fair to look at it that way, is it?

I'm pretty confident that the fastest and slowest drivers in any club could swap motors and the result would be the same. I'd just assume nobody post thoughts to the contrary on that, and muddy the thread. Because if you are absolutely honest, and absolutely objective, you know this is an accurate assement.

So at that point, we are fighting perceptions. What can be done to make racers feel they are getting a fair shake in the slowest of the classes? What motor will allow this?

And I hate using the word "slow", it almost sounds demeaning to me. some of the tightest, cleanest racing, happens in these classes. It takes a VERY good driver to be dominant in 27t classes. You have to be good at every aspect of the class. EVERY aspect. Driver is still 90% of it. But the guy that has excellent motor knowledge and skill, and superior battery knowledge and skill, and good programs in place, and outstanding car setup and knowledge will find himself at the top. He's not sandbagging, he's doing what we all told him to do. Work on your stuff, work on your motors, Work on your batterys, get some practice... So know that he's done all that, there are those among us that call him a cherry picker, or a sandbagger.

Doesn't it seem to make sense that the new guys SHOULD be cutting comm's, and watching their packs, and learning how solder wicks up the brush shunt, and how to true tires, and re-building diffs, etc? How else can you build a solid foundation in the sport if you have no idea how any of it works?

Who started the idea that a noob should come into a competitive hobby/sport and be able to do it easily for a total outlay of say $50 bucks a year... Rookies need help from the pro's, and club level pro's. And to let them decide their level of commitment. People get into the hobby because it's fun, exciting, fast, and they want to participate. They're looking for a hobby, something to fill their time. I can't help but feel we are really trying to put a "level of commitment" on everybody that is just to low to be good for the hobby. "Hi, here's your race car, don't tough it, see you in a month at the track..."

That's another thing we need to examine, the thought that we are taking away about 90% of the hobby, which is working on your stuff...

Hmm, if I don't need to work on my stuff, how am I gonna fill my spare time during the week? I'll probably get another hobby. That's either funny, as in Ironic, or funny as in, you know, that's not right, he's got a legit thought there.

In the process of trying to help iron out a good lower level class, we are likely to be taking the "hobby" out of it. Explain to me how it helps get people to the track when they're finding something else to do with their spare time and extra cash.

Nothing to reach for, nothing to achieve, AND NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT. All you can do is practice. Can't improve your battery program, can't work on or improve your motor program... Not much left to do, I'm gonna get myself another hobby.
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Old 01-09-2008, 03:37 PM   #728
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer View Post
"Not much left to do"

You know what the real problem is with this whole debate? We're trying to come up with a slower concept for a more low speed class. None of us are noobs, it's hard to really get into that mindset and decide what is going to make for a ROAR class that is fast, fun, and at the very least a good place to start. Yet still allow good competition for people with some experience.

Why have we decided that the noobs need to be coddled on such a pitiful level that we don't even want them to suffer and learn and grow for a few months or years while enjoying the hobby. Where is the sense of accomplishment if you win your very first time out? Not everybody gets to win, not everybody is going to ever be in an A-main.

There's also nothing that says Noobs can't start out in mod. There are also noobs that just don't care about the classes and want to haul-ass regardless of the outcome. Just because we don't think it's a wise idea, doesn't mean they agree.

Nobody has much of a beef with mod. Some mid-speed class is pretty much handled. At this point, regardless of on-road or offroad, we just need to iron out a path for the slowest of the classes. Sadly, to all of us, like it or not, it would sure appear that the most griping at any event is with the drivers in 27turn stock. It's labor intensive to do VERY WELL, but noobs mistake the motor as being the reason they are a few laps down, so it's really not fair to look at it that way, is it?

I'm pretty confident that the fastest and slowest drivers in any club could swap motors and the result would be the same. I'd just assume nobody post thoughts to the contrary on that, and muddy the thread. Because if you are absolutely honest, and absolutely objective, you know this is an accurate assement.

So at that point, we are fighting perceptions. What can be done to make racers feel they are getting a fair shake in the slowest of the classes? What motor will allow this?

And I hate using the word "slow", it almost sounds demeaning to me. some of the tightest, cleanest racing, happens in these classes. It takes a VERY good driver to be dominant in 27t classes. You have to be good at every aspect of the class. EVERY aspect. Driver is still 90% of it. But the guy that has excellent motor knowledge and skill, and superior battery knowledge and skill, and good programs in place, and outstanding car setup and knowledge will find himself at the top.

That's all we need to examine. And the thought that we are taking away about 90% of the hobby, which is working on your stuff...

Hmm, if I don't need to work on my stuff, how am I gonna fill my spare time during the week? I'll probably get another hobby. That's either funny, as in Ironic, or funny as in, you know, that's not right, he's got a legit thought there.

In the process of trying to help iron out a good lower level class, we are likely to be taking the "hobby" out of it. Explain to me how it helps get people to the track when they're finding something else to do with their spare time and extra cash.

Nothing to reach for, nothing to achieve, AND NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT. All you can do is practice. Can't improve your battery program, can't work on or improve your motor program... Not much left to do.
This is a great post from the ultimate hobbyist.

How long did it take you to be competitive racing lawn mowers?
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Old 01-09-2008, 03:38 PM   #729
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Some of the most fun racing I've ever done has been in the Silver and Black can Mabuchi motor races. Even silver can Mabuchi motors in M03's on our little 60' by 60' track seems like the speed of heat. At those speeds the differences in the level of equipment is minimal so the guy driving the TA04 with the right tires is in a heated race right along side the guy with the 415. Racing with 50% or more of the field nose to tail for the whole 5 minutes is intense and fun, no matter what speed they are going at.
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Old 01-09-2008, 03:44 PM   #730
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This is a great post from the ultimate hobbyist.

How long did it take you to be competitive racing lawn mowers?
6 years, ending with 7 national championship titles from 1998-2000. All televised on ESPN and speedvision. We won 50% of the televised events for 2 years. That's no easy feat when you put people's Ego's on television.

We had to retire the end of the 2000 season, not because it wasn't fun. I still think about it every day. I still help moderate a few Racing mower forums, and help noobs in that area. I'm still in contact with a pretty good group of those guys. We went out on top, retired as the champions, having repeated as champions from the year before.

We had to quit because it was just to far to drive. Every national event was 2-3 weeks off work. Not to mention you don't win a Televised motorsport event with a $50 engine. Our last engines were just short of $6000 each. And you don't attend a major TV event without a spare. We had a sponsor and hospitality tent in Marysville Ohio the year we raced for "SCOTTS", the turf builder company. We even had publicists negotiating contracts for us. Mind you, we were the ONLY guys doing it. I wanted to take it to the highest level we could, and we did. Still, to this date, nobody has landed a bigger sponsor or taken it to the level we did. I'm proud of our contribution to that sport. We still get mentioned in the newsletters, and those guys still call looking for advise on getting sponsors and setups.

My good Friend, Bobby Cleveland (he was on the monster garage episode where they made a Ford mustang a lawn mower), He's got a good thing going with Gold Eagle, and it's now his full time job. Other than that, nobody has gotten the sponsor thing figured out. AND THEIR ON TELEVISION...

You got me all sentimental again. MAN, I miss doing that. Just to much time away from work and family. It's hard to quit something that you are the best in the world at, and really enjoy. Not to many people get to be the best in the world, at anything... I respect that period of my life, and look back on it VERY fondly. What a cool thing to have happened, to anybody.
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Old 01-09-2008, 03:55 PM   #731
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There are some other things beside motors and batteries. You have to set up your chassis, look for the right tires, inserts, shocks, etc,etc. Not everybody has 20 hours a week to tune up 5 brushed motors and cycle 8 batteries, and thats what lipo brushless technology is giving us.

The rules must be set now, so that we have an equal playing field for the next years. Motor designs and materials must be regularized, batteries capacity must be regularized.

No more motor gurus, no more battery gurus, because that can be very expensive in terms of necesary equipment.

Welcomed driving gurus and chassis gurus, because thats going to let us see new people in this hobby.

Being more direct, new techology and new rules is going to let us have new people, longer mains, tighter finishes and more fun.

Three or four motor classes, 5000 mAh lipos ROAR approved, at least for a couple years.

(Sorry for my poor english)
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Old 01-09-2008, 04:04 PM   #732
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Bob, your text is way to long to quote, but what your saying is very true, about the hobby. It shouldn't be like a one stamp, stamp collector, yep, there it is, got it stuck in the book, now what? Guess I'll polish my one coin collection.

Yep, your going to get people using some of their time on chassis tuning, tires, shocks, etc. BUT I bet you'll see just as many people sitting around watching the DVD player or playing the PS2, then hit the track, wonder why the car still handles like crap, do a bunch of complaining, go home pissed, and if they do show up next week, I bet they still didn't do a darn thing to the car. (I'm already seeing it at other races.)
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Old 01-09-2008, 04:05 PM   #733
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Originally Posted by pepecueva View Post
There are some other things beside motors and batteries. You have to set up your chassis, look for the right tires, inserts, shocks, etc,etc. Not everybody has 20 hours a week to tune up 5 brushed motors and cycle 8 batteries, and thats what lipo brushless technology is giving us.

The rules must be set now, so that we have an equal playing field for the next years. Motor designs and materials must be regularized, batteries capacity must be regularized.

No more motor gurus, no more battery gurus, because that can be very expensive in terms of necesary equipment.

Welcomed driving gurus and chassis gurus, because thats going to let us see new people in this hobby.

Being more direct, new techology and new rules is going to let us have new people, longer mains, tighter finishes and more fun.

Three or four motor classes, 5000 mAh lipos ROAR approved, at least for a couple years.

(Sorry for my poor english)
Your English is very good... my Spanish... not so good.

The things you hope for, are impossible. It would be neat. But not possible. As long as other people do have the spare time to work on motors and batteries, they will. And as long as others have the spare income, there are people that will pay for high end matched lipo's. Danny at SMC has already weighed in on that (might have been over a year ago, so it's not a new idea). He has shown he can find and work a pack so that it's a 1/10th of a volt or more higher. I'd have a pack that discharged at say 7.2 volts average, yours would discharge at 7.3 volts average. And because most of feel obligated to run the pack for a while, you'd have that advantage for a longer period of time. So it becomes a better deal to pay for a high end matched li-po pack. See where that's headed. People need to be careful what they wish for.

As long there is racing, the goal is to finish first. Or within your limitations. It ain't a car show. People are going to want to work on and improve every aspect of their program. Frankly, lately I'm my bummed by people that get more practice than I do. Can't limit that either.

This is coming. And we all asked for it... Like it or not. If people like to race with li-po, somebody will help you achieve the highest level of that activity.
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Old 01-09-2008, 04:06 PM   #734
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Bob, your text is way to long to quote, but what your saying is very true, about the hobby. It shouldn't be like a one stamp, stamp collector, yep, there it is, got it stuck in the book, now what? Guess I'll polish my one coin collection.

Yep, your going to get people using some of their time on chassis tuning, tires, shocks, etc. BUT I bet you'll see just as many people sitting around watching the DVD player or playing the PS2, then hit the track, wonder why the car still handles like crap, do a bunch of complaining, go home pissed, and if they do show up next week, I bet they still didn't do a darn thing to the car. (I'm already seeing it at other races.)
We can't be seen agreeing with each other... might not be good for the sport...
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Old 01-09-2008, 04:23 PM   #735
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I think we are losing track of the original point of this thread:

It is about ROAR making rules to allow BL in the current classes and what BL motors would fit in with both stock and 19t. Mod is already set.

However I did like the story about the lawnmower racing Bob, and to your point:

Ya just can't beat cubic dollars!
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