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Old 01-08-2008, 01:57 PM   #616
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If you move 10.5 up to mod, what is going to happen when the track is huge (100ft or more straight)? The guys with 7.5s, 5.5s, 4.5s, and 3.5s are going to be much faster than the 10.5 guys. On a smaller track, this may not be the case, but again not every track is the same. Consistency in classes across the nation is near impossible with brushless when you have some small tracks and some large tracks.
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Old 01-08-2008, 02:05 PM   #617
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If you move 10.5 up to mod, what is going to happen when the track is huge (100ft or more straight)? The guys with 7.5s, 5.5s, 4.5s, and 3.5s are going to be much faster than the 10.5 guys. On a smaller track, this may not be the case, but again not every track is the same. Consistency in classes across the nation is near impossible with brushless when you have some small tracks and some large tracks.
Consistency can be achieved. As far as the 10.5 going to mod, nobody would probably run it. Yes, some would have to buy different motors, some are going to have to buy different motors anyways. And I am not left out either, if mod goes to 5-cell I would have to buy batteries as all my off road stuff is lipo powered. Also to achieve the same speeds I will have to get new motors as well.

I think what Josh H posted is an elegant solution.
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Old 01-08-2008, 02:11 PM   #618
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I agree with Panther420,
The reason the sport is not growing is at most tracks newbies are thrown to the wolves. They have to run with the 13.5 or 10.5 cars. If tracks would adopt the 17.5 class as a beginner class maybe more new racers would stay in the hobby. When they reach a certain level they should be moved up to the next class. The transfer to the next level would be much easier for them.

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I think most people posting on this thread has lost site of what ROAR is trying to achieve here. These rules will be the rules for all ROAR National events and be guidelines for ROAR Regional and ROAR affiliated club/local races. If a club or track owner tries to match the ROAR National rules but sees that there is a big need for a stock 13.5 class at their local events, then that is what they should run. Being tuned in to the grass roots racing is not only important for the club/track owner but also for the hobby overall. If anyone plans on going to a ROAR National event, then you will know what the classes and rules will be. I try to attend as many National events that I can and in preparation for going to that national event, I will run the motors at my local club events that I will be running at the ROAR National event. If that means that I have to bump up to 19T with my 13.5 because the local club only allows 17.5 in stock, then I will compete with the 19T racers that particular day. If I want to enter a ROAR National event and the class I want to run is 10.5 but my local club only allows 13.5 for that class, then I will bump up to modified and run my 10.5. My goal is to get ready for the National event. After the national event then I can put the appropriate motor in my car that meets the local rules. With so many options available, it would be impossible to come up with a set of rules that would meet all needs. So letís keep everything in perspective here.
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Old 01-08-2008, 02:16 PM   #619
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I see alot of people who worry about the investment they have in 13.5 motors. If ROAR fails to keep a 13.5 class there are alot of BRL guys who run 13.5 motors. So there will be a market for your 13.5 motors if you want to get rid of them. I think 13.5 and 10.5 are the biggest classes in BRL.

Another thing to consider and I have mentioned it many times is choosing the right power source! Lithium batteries will replace NiMH batteries, it will just be a matter of time. The lithium batteries will only get batter in power output and capacity. The impovements in power will make any motor faster and this is why when designing racing classes the current and the future speeds must be considered

I feel it will be easier for ROAR to make four classes so that racers who travel can easily prepare for any of the four classes:

Novice (I suggest 17.5 or 21.5)
Intermediate ( I suggest 13.5)
Modified (I suggest 10.5)
Pro Modified (OPEN BL)

With out the 4th classes, a traveling racer may run into problems with tracks running odd rules such at 18.5, or 23.5 motors. In this respect, a racer would have to buy 5 or 6 different motors just to be able to race the tracks the next town over. With the desinated four classes a racer could expect that if a track does not race their favorite class they will most likely race the class above or below reducing the need for mulitple spare motors to just one motor spare motor.

I would rather have a pit box with one spare motor of a different winding than have to have 5 or 6 motors of different windings because of club tracks in my area not being on the same page for Rules which are influenced by ROAR just as much as they are influenced by the local racers.

My pit box already has 17.5, 13.5 and 10.5 motors in it just like many other racers
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Old 01-08-2008, 02:35 PM   #620
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I wasn't going to put this here, but since it was brought up;

Quote from MaxAmps,

MaxAmps have released the ultimate upgrade for any vehicle that takes a 6 cell saddle pack of Sub C NiMH cells, with the release of a range of LiPo saddle packs. Sold in 6000mAh and 4000mAh, these 7.4V packs are hard cased and simply drop into your car with no modification necessary. Super lightweight, they offer twice the capacity as normal NiMH for the same weight and can maintain a maximum discharge of 90Amps.


SOOOO, now tell me why the weight breaks need to be adjusted.
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Old 01-08-2008, 02:39 PM   #621
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Originally Posted by panther420 View Post
No track in our area is running mod anymore.
I hear a lot of that as well. Mod is hard, we finally have more power than 99% of us can use effectively. This is why a great deal of us can turn faster laps with a 27t brushed motor than a full on mod.

Also, at club races the mod guys usually complain about the slower guys in the class. It's the guy that's 10 laps off the pace that still has to race with you, even though your lapping him every 45 seconds. We gripe that nobody's in mod, and gripe when their in mod.

People advocating 5 cell should spend a few months running it. I ran it, mixed results, but didn't care for it. Was harder to make time, and slower, weird scenario.

Mod at the big races is always less populated with racers. Firstly, mod is THEE spec class people are always griping we should have. Guess what, you can basically have all the power in the world now, the playing field is level, what's a persons excuse for not racing in it? No team parts needed, no killer batterys, and an outta the box car can win a national championship. So where is everybody? Problem is, only the high end factory pro's are good enough to REALLY hang onto those cars, and use it effectively. Also, "Joe Average racer" is usually pretty worried that he's going to accidentally break or seriously hack some pro at a big event. "say man, aren't you the dude that hacked Toso' at the birds and broke his car?...". To which you reply, "Uh... no.. that was... uh... Barry Baker..."
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Old 01-08-2008, 02:52 PM   #622
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We dont have a mod class either except when everyone gets together and decides its about time they need to replace a few parts and want to run it on a particular weekend. That is why I think both 13.5 and 10.5 would fit well in a "19Turn" class. It would probably also make that class one of the bigger and most competitive ones since most people have either a 13.5, 10.5 or both if they have brushless at all.
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Old 01-08-2008, 02:55 PM   #623
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer View Post
I hear a lot of that as well. Mod is hard, we finally have more power than 99% of us can use effectively. This is why a great deal of us can turn faster laps with a 27t brushed motor than a full on mod.

Also, at club races the mod guys usually complain about the slower guys in the class. It's the guy that's 10 laps off the pace that still has to race with you, even though your lapping him every 45 seconds. We gripe that nobody's in mod, and gripe when their in mod.

People advocating 5 cell should spend a few months running it. I ran it, mixed results, but didn't care for it. Was harder to make time, and slower, weird scenario.

Mod at the big races is always less populated with racers. Firstly, mod is THEE spec class people are always griping we should have. Guess what, you can basically have all the power in the world now, the playing field is level, what's a persons excuse for not racing in it? No team parts needed, no killer batterys, and an outta the box car can win a national championship. So where is everybody? Problem is, only the high end factory pro's are good enough to REALLY hang onto those cars, and use it effectively. Also, "Joe Average racer" is usually pretty worried that he's going to accidentally break or seriously hack some pro at a big event. "say man, aren't you the dude that hacked Toso' at the birds and broke his car?...". To which you reply, "Uh... no.. that was... uh... Barry Baker..."

So true on people being concious of being in the way when the factory guys are in the same heat......

Mod is going to make a comeback imo with brushless making it easy to jump into compared to running a 6x1 brushed motor.... lol
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Old 01-08-2008, 02:56 PM   #624
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob-Stormer
.. "say man, aren't you the dude that hacked Toso' at the birds and broke his car?..."
But this answer would be way more entertaining.. "He crossed the line on the drivers stand and I said POOOW straight to the moon!"
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Old 01-08-2008, 03:00 PM   #625
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If brushed and 17.5 BL are run together here is what I see happening to new racers:

First a new guy shows up and at the urging of the locals gets a 17.5 BL system for his XYZ car.

Several months pass and as the new guy gets used to the car setup and the motor he realizes that his car is slower in the straights than the "pros". The new guy wants his car to be the same speed to be competitive so he buys the motor that the "pros" are running, problem is that motor happens to be 27T brushed. So the new guy now has to learn to tune his stock motor to be as fast as the "pros" motor and how to maintain it at the same time.

New guy ends up spending the next months huddled over a comm lathe and he loses focus over why he started racing. New guy sells r/c stuff on ebay and spends his time playing with his Xbox.

OR:

Local track defies ROAR(won't be the first time) and continues to run 13.5 BL with 27T brushed. New guy learns to setup a car, and while he is waiting for his LiPo to charge chats with the other racers.

Now which option sounds more FUN?

NO to 17.5 with 27T
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Old 01-08-2008, 03:03 PM   #626
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Originally Posted by SpeedyPenguin View Post
If brushed and 17.5 BL are run together here is what I see happening to new racers:

First a new guy shows up and at the urging of the locals gets a 17.5 BL system for his XYZ car.

Several months pass and as the new guy gets used to the car setup and the motor he realizes that his car is slower in the straights than the "pros". The new guy wants his car to be the same speed to be competitive so he buys the motor that the "pros" are running, problem is that motor happens to be 27T brushed. So the new guy now has to learn to tune his stock motor to be as fast as the "pros" motor and how to maintain it at the same time.

New guy ends up spending the next months huddled over a comm lathe and he loses focus over why he started racing. New guy sells r/c stuff on ebay and spends his time playing with his Xbox.

OR:

Local track defies ROAR(won't be the first time) and continues to run 13.5 BL with 27T brushed. New guy learns to setup a car, and while he is waiting for his LiPo to charge chats with the other racers.

Now which option sounds more FUN?

NO to 17.5 with 27T

Are you sure that a 17.5 will be slower than a tuned 27 turn brushed?
Just asking because 13.5 is noticably faster that a 27 turn brushed motor.
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Old 01-08-2008, 03:07 PM   #627
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There is obviously no solution that will please everybody. And saying to run what your area supports regardless of the rules is just a scapegoat to lay down some rules without feeling bad about upsetting some people. But it needs to be consistent from track to track. So lay down the rules, and require Roar affiliated clubs to run them. In time most other tracks will conform as well, there will still be outlaw tracks I have no doubts, but there are things to consider to make less of them. A dedicated 13.5 class would help. But if that means creating more classes, then at what expense would it be. I don't care what motor is chosen, so long as the majority of tracks abide by it. I will do what I always do, and buy what I need to race. But with this track running this and that track running that, it will only mean less traveling for me and others. The best way around it is to legalize what we are already running. And what we are running is ultimately the fault of Roar to begin with.
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Old 01-08-2008, 03:10 PM   #628
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I think your all worried about that for nothing. When these rules pass chances are your going to see brushed motors going away fast. So you won't have to worry about 27t anymore.
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Old 01-08-2008, 03:10 PM   #629
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I'd like to make a few points here because i was actually at the Novak race

*The difference in 13.5 to 10.5 is that you actually need to let off in most corners with 10.5. 10.5 is closer to mod in my opinion than 13.5 is to stock. 19t is almost as strapped as stock is. I have experienced the same thing racing 1/12 cars. Also, it was about .02 per lap mod to 10.5, 10.5 to 13.5.

Not to mention the B main of mod was turning 10.5 a/b main times.

*The reason to look at the results of the Novak is that there were both the best drivers in the country, and some of the most wonderfully average drivers in the country. Looking beyond the A main to compare lap times can shed quite a bit of light on the decision making process.

*There should be an intermediate class. If that needs to be a different motor for carpet and asphalt, so be it.

*17.5, or maybe something even slower, should be a ROAR class regardless of it's inclusion at the nationals. It should be there so manufacturers will pay attention to it, and tracks will have a standard to work with. Any car, on or off road, is pretty complex these days. We need a starting point which is easy to handle, and standard across the country.

*Brushless is probably one of the best things to happen to racing in a while. I was not a big fan early on, but I have seen the light. We just need to stay vigilant so things don't go out of control.
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Old 01-08-2008, 03:12 PM   #630
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Originally Posted by Francis M. View Post
Are you sure that a 17.5 will be slower than a tuned 27 turn brushed?
Just asking because 13.5 is noticably faster that a 27 turn brushed motor.
Have you seen a good brushed motor on good batteries against a 13.5 with good batteries and gearing?

On both a carpet track and an asphalt track?

On carpet it might look faster easier because of the torque difference out of the corners.

In a straight up race down the straight they are very equal.

Brushed won't go away if it can give a competitive edge over 17.5 BL
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