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Old 01-08-2008, 11:22 AM   #586
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Originally Posted by wallstreet View Post
If roar desides to make a 17.5 and then the next class be a 10.5 class that is just 2 tenths difference from mod i believe would be a big mistake and would be seen at the first event it would be run.

Again after watching live in person at the novak and seeing that 10.5 was 2 tenths off mod why would you have 2 classes so close in speed? With not that many guys running mod as it is why have to classes with almost the same lap times.
I don't think comparing times on any given track is the way to determine what motor's should be run in what classes. I race at two local tracks. One is 120x60, the other is 60x40. The lap times between stock and 19T are only a few tenths of a second different (7.4s 19T vs 7.6s Stock) on the smaller track and they are almost a second or more on the larger track. When it comes to 13.5 vs 10.5, 13.5 lap times are slightly slower than 10.5 on the small track, but once we get to the big track with a 120ft straight, there is a more considerable difference between the two. The same can be said for a tight track vs. a very open track and 10.5 and 13.5 vs mod. Again, let the clubs decide based on their track what they want. Let the ROAR rules be more like guidelines for local tracks, and worry more about what would make the national ROAR races the most competitive. Just my two cents on the speed debate...
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Old 01-08-2008, 11:31 AM   #587
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I guess my point is you have to be rigid. You have to piss off some people. There have to be defined rules to go by. I know you guys are working on this and trying to get the most fair set of rules out there but that will involve making some stuff illegal. This is not an easy job and I do not envy your position. There is not a way to include everything. The reality is the "slow" stuff will not survive anyway. If it is sensored or sensorless or hemi or cross over (or what ever the BL term is for different winds) the slower version will lose out. It always does. The rules should state what versions are legal though which we do not know. Sintered arms, Rare Earth magnets, max length of can, what ever it is there need to be rules. This is not about opening the rule book and letting everyone run what ever. Again I have no problems with the change, it has been coming for years. We just need the rules now. We are deal with all new technology here and the old rules do not apply anymore. That is the fact. I think to set up the rules right though there will be some stuff out there that will be non conforming and thus not legal making someone out there mad that there stuff does not meet the new rules. It is going to happen but that is life. The large companies have jumped in both feet and done what ever THEY thought was right. This technology change is killing the little guys though and they cannot afford to invest in something that may be cutting edge but not meet the rules. The investment to just go out on a limb will bury them if they don't guess right. Once there are rules in place everyone can move on and we can continue playing with our toys! This stuff applies to Lipo as well. These things are so bad there are restrictions on shipping them or even taking them on planes. It is kind of like playing with Nitro Fuel!
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Old 01-08-2008, 11:35 AM   #588
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I guess my point is you have to be rigid. You have to piss off some people.
I don't have a problem with that... and the Excom will, as a team, make the decisions we can that will best impact all of ROAR membership for 2008 and the the future.....

Somebody is gonna get mad. Heck, I just made a good friend mad at me about 1/2 hour ago with something I said here... its gonna happen. And, I'm the one out here taking the heat and have promised I will keep you all informed.

I assume every single person reading this and posting is a ROAR member, correct?
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Old 01-08-2008, 11:41 AM   #589
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I don't think comparing times on any given track is the way to determine what motor's should be run in what classes. I race at two local tracks. One is 120x60, the other is 60x40. The lap times between stock and 19T are only a few tenths of a second different (7.4s 19T vs 7.6s Stock) on the smaller track and they are almost a second or more on the larger track. When it comes to 13.5 vs 10.5, 13.5 lap times are slightly slower than 10.5 on the small track, but once we get to the big track with a 120ft straight, there is a more considerable difference between the two. The same can be said for a tight track vs. a very open track and 10.5 and 13.5 vs mod. Again, let the clubs decide based on their track what they want. Let the ROAR rules be more like guidelines for local tracks, and worry more about what would make the national ROAR races the most competitive. Just my two cents on the speed debate...
Very good point that I do not think people were really considering. Track size will make a huge difference. We ran 10.5's last summer outside and the 13.5's could barely get within 2 seconds per lap.

Most carpet tracks are small and the difference between the motors is small. Couple of tenths faster with each class. Stock and 19t are so fast that mod is almost irrelevant these days. That needs to change. One good think about doing the 17.5 and 10.5 is most of the "FAST" stock guys are not going to run the 17.5 as they think it is to "SLOW". They will run 10.5 leaving room for new "FAST" guys in the stock/17.5 classes. This is a great idea to get a "LOT" of the fast stock guys winning all of the races out of there. It is time to move on.

"BUT" 10.5 is too close to modified........... Hmmmmm.

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Old 01-08-2008, 11:44 AM   #590
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ROAR member and planning on attending ROAR nats in March. This debate might make a difference on what classes I decide to run in and how many people from this area may also go. I still vote for:

17.5 / 27Turn
13.5 / 10.5 / 19Turn
Open mod
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Old 01-08-2008, 11:47 AM   #591
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For Class Names how about:

Stock = ?
Expert = ?
Modified = Open

You guys can hash out the turns or whatever in the Spec classes. If I don't like it I'll just run Mod. No biggie. More of us experienced drivers should be looking at this the same way.

Keep up the good work Dawn.

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Old 01-08-2008, 11:59 AM   #592
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Originally Posted by Dawn Sanchez View Post
Or, am I nuts?
maybe? But you have the troops riled up and not trying to slash each other's internet throats... You must be doing something right.

Top down is a good thing. However, I still think that there should be a section in the rule book (for people that don't get it yet) that outlines rules for club racing, prefaced with a paragraph explaining that the rules are meant to be used as an outline and changed up for what the local scene requires to make racing work for the masses in their location...

Somehow in the rules it should be written so that people know that they can run a higher turn motor in the spec class of their choice I.E. a 27 turn stocker in open mod, and be perfectly within the rules. But you know how people in spec classes think, they must run the limit no matter what the result or detriment.
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Old 01-08-2008, 12:07 PM   #593
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wallstreet View Post
If you want times to be spaced like they are with brushed it should be 17.5, 13.5, and then mod
I agree with this 100%.

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Heck at dinner wensday night the winner of the 10.5 class said he thought they should get rid of mod and make 10.5 the top class . And most agreed with him
This is what may happen naturally. And modified's sure demise will be the addition of a fourth class (17.5).
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Old 01-08-2008, 12:19 PM   #594
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Believe it or not my previous post wasn't just for me. There needs to be consistency from track to track throughout the country. If I go travel someplace I want the format to be the same as where I race. So here it is, there are a couple of carpet tracks in my area. The one that I race at the most, the new rules will not be taken into consideration until fall as this season is already underway. But in the fall we will go back to Roar rules. But if the consensus is to run what you want at the local level, then when I travel I may not be able to run. ie, if the track I run the most runs by Roar rules, and the other carpet tracks in the area do what they want, it might not be the same. Consistency is the key, all tracks should be encouraged to run by Roar rules not do what they want. But the thing is almost everyone already has the 13.5, which means that people will still want to run it, and the classes for racing throughout the country will be inconsistent. This is why I think the 13.5 should be the new "stock" motor, not because I like it, but for consistency.
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Old 01-08-2008, 12:29 PM   #595
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Why not just have 4 classes?

17.5 - novice
13.5 - intermediate
10.5 - expert
mod - pro

This seems like the best way to make everybody happy (or at least close to it).
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Old 01-08-2008, 12:31 PM   #596
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What is the actual date the rule book will be set in stone? Any chance of it being available online for us to view or will I need to purchase a hard copy?
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Old 01-08-2008, 12:31 PM   #597
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Believe it or not my previous post wasn't just for me. There needs to be consistency from track to track throughout the country. If I go travel someplace I want the format to be the same as where I race. So here it is, there are a couple of carpet tracks in my area. The one that I race at the most, the new rules will not be taken into consideration until fall as this season is already underway. But in the fall we will go back to Roar rules. But if the consensus is to run what you want at the local level, then when I travel I may not be able to run. ie, if the track I run the most runs by Roar rules, and the other carpet tracks in the area do what they want, it might not be the same. Consistency is the key, all tracks should be encouraged to run by Roar rules not do what they want. But the thing is almost everyone already has the 13.5, which means that people will still want to run it, and the classes for racing throughout the country will be inconsistent. This is why I think the 13.5 should be the new "stock" motor, not because I like it, but for consistency.
If you have a 13.5 motor, and go to a track where only 17.5 and 27 Turn are allowed in stock, then you would have to run with the 10.5/19Turn guys. No one is saying "ban the 13.5." At some tracks 13.5 may just become the intermediate 19Turn motor, and 10.5 is the expert 19Turn motor and brushed 19T can be what you make of it. Just like open mod it would be sort of an "open 19Turn" class. Just like you could go run a 7.5 brushless in open mod or a 3.5...you can run a 13.5 or 10.5 ... whatever suits your driving skill best.
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Old 01-08-2008, 12:32 PM   #598
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Why not just have 4 classes?

17.5 - novice
13.5 - intermediate
10.5 - expert
mod - pro

This seems like the best way to make everybody happy (or at least close to it).
I don't see the need to further divide classes, all this tends to do is bring participation down in each class. We are not going to be able to make everyone happy, and that's just how it is. Again, if local clubs want to continue running 13.5, they are ecouraged to do so.
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Old 01-08-2008, 12:50 PM   #599
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If you have a 13.5 motor, and go to a track where only 17.5 and 27 Turn are allowed in stock, then you would have to run with the 10.5/19Turn guys. No one is saying "ban the 13.5." At some tracks 13.5 may just become the intermediate 19Turn motor, and 10.5 is the expert 19Turn motor and brushed 19T can be what you make of it. Just like open mod it would be sort of an "open 19Turn" class. Just like you could go run a 7.5 brushless in open mod or a 3.5...you can run a 13.5 or 10.5 ... whatever suits your driving skill best.
You may be in an area where you have the pleasure to race 19t, however I am not. Around here it is very rare to be able to run it. The track an hour north of me occasionally will have it, but the track I run at the most does not have it and has no intentions of having it. I tried to get the class going, but I was the only person who could drive a 19t faster around the track than stock, I was all for it, but nobody else wanted to do it. So when the track goes to 27t/17.5 what do we tell the person with the 13.5 who is able to run at their track?
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Old 01-08-2008, 12:53 PM   #600
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With stock brushed getting faster and with all the talk of slowing things down and 17.5s being just slightly slower then a good tuned stock...maybe it's time to rethink brushed stock as well. Maybe a 28 or 29 turn
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