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Old 01-02-2008, 08:24 PM   #46
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Kevin (VernDog)

You're missing the main point. This is based on ROAR National's guidlines...AKA "the 2008 Nat's" not Doug's club racing. Once the rules are set, the hobby shops like SIR are free to tweek them as needed.

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Old 01-02-2008, 08:26 PM   #47
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I see everybody posting this brushed vs brushless thing... Nobody has really asked how much longer are Brushed motors going to be around? Look at the current Modified class, a vast majority of drivers have switched to brushless and they still have the option to run brushed. Give it a little more time and everybody will be running brushless in Modified. Brushed motors are slowing being phased out. I think the same sort of thing will need to happen in Stock and 19T as I believe within 3-4 years it will be brushless everywhere. I don't envy the position Dawn is in, in making such an important decision but I love the fact she is open to almost anything and is taking the input from average racers... I'm really open to trying anything so I'm exited in what the future holds!
As long as manufacturers keep making entry level kits and RTRs with brushed motors in them this is going to be an issue. Who wants to tell the kid that just got a nice Tamiya car that instead of just changing the motor he's got to buy this expensive ESC and motor to be able to race. Racing has to be accessable to the new drivers as well as the veteran racers. The time may be coming though...with Tamiya putting in ESCs in their Minis and still keeping the cost low the time may not be far enough when the cost of BL technology comes down enough for them to include a BL setup.
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Old 01-02-2008, 08:27 PM   #48
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. Once the rules are set, the hobby shops like SIR are free to tweek them as needed.
In fact, encouraged...
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Old 01-02-2008, 08:32 PM   #49
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Has anyone ever compared a 6 cell 17.5 to a 4 cell 13.5 or 10.5?

Seems to me that reducing cells does a few things to help the situation... It makes the costs for the racer less because they have fewer cells, and it might also give 1/12th scale a little boost because you'll no longer need as many battery packs if you want to run TC and 1/12th (assuming the cells are the same configuration). Lastly, it slows the speeds down for entry level racers while at the same time not making those that have 13.5 and/or 10.5 obsolete.

Honestly, I think trying to make brushless and brushed fairly equal is a losing proposition. One will always emerge over the other every time you try to balance things out and it's going to make people more frustrated than ever. Especially if 17.5 and 27T are grouped together. We'll end up right back where we were a few years ago, everyone using 27T motors. I don't care if brushless is easier, most people will use whatever is fastest, which is precisely why at the club level 13.5 has taken over and very few people are running brushed motors. Someone used the IB cells as an example. But I don't see it as a fair one until brushed motors are blowing holes in someones chassis and leaving battery acid everywhere.
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Old 01-02-2008, 08:33 PM   #50
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In fact, encouraged...
See, I get it. BTW Dawn, I too want to thank you for trying to get this done. It has to be hard but it is very important for racing going forward. Make the hard choice and stick with it.

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Old 01-02-2008, 08:36 PM   #51
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We cant have special motors for every class. All we can do is aim for the middle. 17.5 and 10.5 is the middle.
What is this...a ploy by Novak to spend more money?? We started with 13.5 as the 27T equivalent because the manufactures (Novak) said it was, and nobody else jumped in and said different. Now...they advance timing, rotors, ect, get a bit faster and people whine. The issue isn't resolved by rolling back to an undersized motor, because those to will evolve also without regulation. The issue is to regulate the 13.5 that have been selling the last 1+ years, and use GT3 / silver can as entry level. Dont waste all that money spent!!
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Old 01-02-2008, 08:38 PM   #52
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I'm a 1/12 scale newbie I have been raciing all year with 27 t brushed to get ready for the indoor nationals if I decided to run two classes my next choice would be 19t from my limited experience I know the jump from 27 to 19 is huge in 1/12 and it's that reason that I think 17.5 stock 13.5 19t and open motors for modified would make the climb from novice to expert more bearable.
Let's be honest what ever choice that is made racer's will be set up with the newest and the best if one motor is phased out so be it there are hobby people thrashing around in their front yards that would buy up those motors.
This is just what I've heard, I don't know how true it is... I don't think there is a 1/12th scale car on the market that would allow you to use a pinion large enough to gear a 17.5 properly. If ROAR wants to kill 1/12th scale once and for all they will make 17.5 the new stock class motor.
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Old 01-02-2008, 08:40 PM   #53
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Kevin (VernDog)

You're missing the main point. This is based on ROAR National's guidlines...AKA "the 2008 Nat's" not Doug's club racing. Once the rules are set, the hobby shops like SIR are free to tweek them as needed.

Steve
OK...I got that, but if we do want to run our gear in a sanctioned race, we are screwed if the class doesn't exist.
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Old 01-02-2008, 08:40 PM   #54
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Ya..unless they do away with the class, then you have a useless BL motor on your hands with min. 50% less value. Many of us have 2 motors and spare parts. BS to the 17.5, what a useless slow motor just to save a few 27T whiners from saying 13.5 is too fast. And all this so they can run together?? What about race times...you gunna run 5-6 mins. to ruin the 4200mah and above technology to brushed guys that have trouble at race end on longer runs?? There still is silvercan for entry level drivers, so that no class for newbies is a crock also.

We dont even have 27T races anymore, they all went 13.5 or 10.5.

Maybe we can have a hillbilly class that has 27T motors and wood tires.
Vern, you are one of the people that "needs" a 17.5, you are still pretty new at this and struggle to get a clean lap, not to mention all the broken parts, I'm not picking on you, but also see it with a lot of other racers out there.
13.5 just has too much power for people trying to learn car control.
As to why there are no more stock brushed racers at SIR, well they just got tired of being hammered by the 13.5's that are out of control.
Stock was the most popular class around here, but that has passed with the BL 13.5 cars, and now the stock class is fading fast.
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Old 01-02-2008, 08:43 PM   #55
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In Australia, initially Queensland, we have been running the Novak 13.5 bonded rotor in our 27t stock class for over a year now and have found them to be a good match. We have allowed them at clubs and smaller events. i believe this years Victorian Titles will also allow brushless 13.5 (LRP & Novak only) so that will be the first large event to do so.

Throughout our testing and competition we have discovered that a good tuned 27t brushed motor still provides for faster laps than the bonded brushless equivilant, but in the hands of decent drivers. If you allow the bonded versions only to run with your brushed stock class, you will not see any great leaps forward in performance, however the sintered rotor is way too fast and would defenitely be an advantage.

We have also been using lipo's as well and have found now real dicernable edge in performance on the track apart from a much simpler pit bench.

Hope this helps

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Old 01-02-2008, 08:46 PM   #56
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This is just what I've heard, I don't know how true it is... I don't think there is a 1/12th scale car on the market that would allow you to use a pinion large enough to gear a 17.5 properly. If ROAR wants to kill 1/12th scale once and for all they will make 17.5 the new stock class motor.
Ike,

You have a point here, this is the frustrating about BL motors in 1/12th (except mod 1/12th) and that getting proper gearing. There is only so much room in there. I do have a question for you though as I honestly don't know....Is it possible to get the correct gearing easily with a 13.5 BL motor?

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Old 01-02-2008, 08:49 PM   #57
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I'm sorry, but making 17.5 the new stock equivalent seems like a great way for trinity to sell some more brushed motors. The top rpm of a 13.5 motor is a little higher than a tuned stock motor, what it has much more of is torque. This makes the car HARDER to drive for the average racer. I see many drivers with 13.5 motors go to the lowest punch setting and use negative expo on the throttle to make the car smooth.

Going to the 17.5 will result in a motor with a slower rpm than stock but still a little more torque. So racers will gear the 17.5 to the moon to get the rpm back, and they will run the motors hot.

Speed is not what hurts the newbie racer. All they have to do is dial back the throttle percentage. What hurts the novice racer is the perception of not enough speed, and what they have to do to get that speed (cutting comms, changing brushes between rounds, buying better batteries, etc.)

The 13.5 brushless motor was doing a great job of killing off the brushed motor, now with the rumors of the 17.5, the brushed motor will be reborn.

This is a step backward.

As for the 13.5 causing the poor newbie to break their car, I didn't hear the same concern when the newbie straps a 9t mod into their car.
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Old 01-02-2008, 08:50 PM   #58
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Ike,

You have a point here, this is the frustrating about BL motors in 1/12th (except mod 1/12th) and that getting proper gearing. There is only so much room in there. I do have a question for you though as I honestly don't know....Is it possible to get the correct gearing easily with a 13.5 BL motor?

Steve
I don't think people are having problems, but since I'm just getting my gear built back up after having it stolen about a year ago I can't answer definitively. Hopefully someone else will chime in.
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Old 01-02-2008, 08:52 PM   #59
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Vern, you are one of the people that "needs" a 17.5, you are still pretty new at this and struggle to get a clean lap, not to mention all the broken parts, I'm not picking on you, but also see it with a lot of other racers out there.
13.5 just has too much power for people trying to learn car control.
As to why there are no more stock brushed racers at SIR, well they just got tired of being hammered by the 13.5's that are out of control.
Stock was the most popular class around here, but that has passed with the BL 13.5 cars, and now the stock class is fading fast.
Nice Fred.

1) I've never knocked another car out of a race from losing control, and breaking.
2) Out of 40+ races I've only not finished 2 from breaking....I've had more 10.5's in my corner from 1 race then I've had DNF of all my runs.
3) I will not run 17.5.

Those sir are the facts.
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Old 01-02-2008, 08:52 PM   #60
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Steve...

Talk to B. Bodine. 1/12 needs to go an entirely different direction since LiPo is going to make a HUGE change anyway. He has some GREAT ideas...
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