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Old 01-08-2008, 12:37 AM   #556
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Originally Posted by C_O_jones View Post
Your jumping the gun there Ike, ROAR hasn't decided anything yet.
We are fortunate to have the new pres of ROAR actually on here asking for our opinions and not just the opinions of the manufacturers.
What a great step forward for ROAR.

So don't start wailing on them yet, give them a chance to come to a decision and then if you don't agree, then go for it.
I said "possibly" because I know it's still to be decided. Yes, I think it's great that Dawn is on here listening to peoples thoughts, which is exactly why I'm voicing mine. Plus, typing is fun!
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Old 01-08-2008, 12:54 AM   #557
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I like the idea mentioned previously of just renaming the classes for National Events.

Expert or Pro

However, now you would have to designate motor limits for each class.

Sportsman = 17.5
Intermediate = 10.5/19t
Expert = unlimited BL/BR with 5cell (To conform with JMRCA and EFRA. Then eventually form an international Pro TC set of rules that all countries follow for both IFMAR and National events.)

Sportsman would apply to amateurs and beginners alike. I think the 17.5 speeds would suit them just fine.

Intermediate are basically the current cream of crop sponsored stock racers. Most sponsored stock racers enter both 27t and 19t classes. So the 10.5 and/or 19t would suit them just fine. Plus from my experience the 10.5 and 19t motors are the closest match in performance. So this class could allow both to run together. This would allow motor tuners to show their stuff. And would also allow those that don't wanna fiddle with motor tuning to not worry about that.

Expert is the factory racer. Nuff said about dat.

Now I know some would argue about the speeds of a 17.5 being too slow for them. They would prefer 13.5. But keep in mind, these rules are for the ROAR NATIONALS. Not your local club racing. I think local club racing should conform to what the locals want. Roar is just a basic guide line for them to go by. I have not seen any tracks within the local states around me that conform to Roar rules to a "T".

I think 13.5/sinter is too fast for some of the locals and new drivers here. You can gear them to the moon and have tons more top speed than a 27t. And still have more torque down low. But we still let them run together. This may put most at a disadvantage who run 27t. But it does shut some people up as it has made it more of a level playing field amongst the 13.5 crowd.

Anyways, these rules wouldn't have to be set for 2008. But perhaps something for 2009. I guess an online vote with Roar members would be nice. Or an online poll to enlighten the Roar committee on what the general racing public thinks/wants.

Just my 2
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Old 01-08-2008, 02:45 AM   #558
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(this whole post is likely to be unpopular. I've put on my Nomex undies and dug myself a fox hole.)

So, I ran some 17.5 tonight, I was kind of putting it off, other stuff to do... (1/12th 4-cell) Still to fast for a more entry level class. (club level). IMHO

Whatever happens, we've been running 27turn brushed motors for what feels like 100 years, and there was no shortage of competition and great battles back when the motors were 50-80% less powerful than they are today.

And here's where I'm gonna "step in it", If the cost of (one) motor over the course of a year leads somebody to say, that ROAR has sold them out, Dude, the hobby might not be for you. Sure, it's a hobby, but it ain't a car show. The idea is to race the car. Racing is known to be something that might cost a few bucks. As would any hobby. It's a past time that you enjoy, and you should use it to fill your spare time with something you enjoy. Does that time you spend trimming bodys, and putting stuff together and hanging with your friends have absolutely no value?

I see this on occasion, and I laugh at it every time. Guy sells all his stuff in a huff of anger, "hobby is out of control" sells his stuff for $500. You see him the next week with a $6500 dirt bike in his truck... He's going racing... He's out for a few years, gets back in, still isn't competitive, sells all his stuff again in a fit of anger and goes fishing. He's back in a few years only this time, he's having fun, having been around the block a bit. People justify whatever they want, as long as they are happy about it. It's okay for people to come and go. Why keep somebody in the hobby that's not happy?

You could give everybody in your hometown a car. How many extras would show up to an event? 15-20? How many are gonna do it the second week when they realize they need to develop driving skill and mechanical abilities? You could give everybody in your club a car, NO CHARGE. Half would sell it to the other half, claiming it was a piece of crap, and they still can't win.... must be the car.

Bottom line, I feel people have gotten to married to the motor as the name for the class. And when a change is contemplated, they're not so set on helping the class, as they are keeping the name of it. It's warm and fuzzy, and they like it. Every year it should be, "what's the rule this year?" Instead it's "You can't change 13.5, I just bought a 13.5..."

When the new rules come out every year, as an example, those in charge (that were elected by you, to look out for your interests), should simply say something like this. You've had your YEAR OF FUN, we feel the class as a whole has gotten to fast, this is the style of motor and wind we are going to allow in this class for the coming season.

You sell your old motor (or motors) and move on. Everybody else in the class is meeting the same rule. You don't have a disadvantage. And the rule is being written to help you be more competitive and be easier on your equipment.

The only people that hold on to the thought that 13.5 is or was equivalent to a 27turn motor, are the guys that have decided that they don't have to work so hard to keep up with the guys that are stomping them with the brushed technology. It hasn't changed their typical position or propelled them to the winners circle, it's just perceived as more "equal".

And the best we can do is come close to "perceived as equal".

There are lot's of people that have stepped in here with great club information on what they've seen. and right now, the closest to 27t brushed (in lap times) is 17.5

It's hard for some people to accept they are simply not as fast as other people. I'm on the "back nine" of my racing career, and it's VERY hard for me to accept it. But I plod on, and have as much fun as I can. And I still manage to find the time necessary to complain (to anybody that will listen) that my motors and batterys are clearly the only reason why I'm 2 laps off the pace... That's the hobby, that's racing. No matter what motors are chosen to represent the class, it will not please everybody. It's impossible. If ROAR gave everybody the motor for free, people would still gripe (this motor I got sucks, I'm a lap off the pace, thanks for nothing...). Not everybody gets to be the champion, but we can all be winners, and that's written in stone.

Fast guys, are "FAST guys". No amount of attempting to level the playing field will actually level the playing field. It's wishful thinking.

No amount of giving away free stuff is going to get new people into a hobby they have no interest in. If the cost of just one motor a year is too much for your wallet, you might be in the wrong hobby. If a person can't buy a motor, how long until they can't afford entry fees, and bodys, and whatever else. Dude, you're in the wrong hobby. Sounds cruel, but is there a more "sensitive" way to word it? I don't know.

Don't gamble at a casino if you can't afford to lose it. Pretty common thing to hear anymore. I think most of them have that on the door. Don't go racing if you think it's free. It's racing, and no matter what the sport, it's similar in price and how it effects your wallet and spare time. If you have $3000 a year to blow on RC, if you weren't in RC, you'd blow it on golf, or fishing, or paintball, or whatever it was that has your interest at the time.

So, do we help write a rule that helps the hobby as a whole, or do we write a rule that helps you specifically. (you could be anybody). Takes a big man to give up on his personal ambitions to help the better good of the sport as a whole.

So what is the better good of the hobby? (gonna stop typing, getting to long and nobody reads the long ones) ...lol...
www.stormerhobbies.com "Where the world shops for radio control."

looking for....vintage 1/10-1/12 pan, need Schumacher 1/12th cars and parts.

Last edited by Bob-Stormer; 01-08-2008 at 03:24 AM.
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Old 01-08-2008, 03:27 AM   #559
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Okay, Here's what I'm seeing right now in my minds eye.

In the first 30 seconds of the following video clip, Imagine Dawn Sanchez as the guy in the green suit, walking into this thread and we're the people running up to her. That's got to be about how she feels now and then... I'd probably be the guy with the demo tape. ...lol...


I love that movie.
www.stormerhobbies.com "Where the world shops for radio control."

looking for....vintage 1/10-1/12 pan, need Schumacher 1/12th cars and parts.

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Old 01-08-2008, 03:33 AM   #560
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I couldn't have said it any better. Those are awesome points you brought up. We had guys running 13.5's against brushed and happy that they were keeping up. Now that we all have switched they're two laps down again.
Anyways....I'm glad you took the words right out of my mouth so I wouldn't have to type all the words you did...!!!
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Old 01-08-2008, 04:52 AM   #561
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I know that its been said you don't want to add a 4th class, but.
1)17.5 is closest to stock (maybe a little lower for now)
2) 13.5 is a medium stepping point to '19t'
3) 19t / 10.5 is what it is
4) open Mod is...well, open

It was also mentioned that perhaps the 'slowest class had no place at a state/national level, I could aggree. so how about this scenario.

Sportsman = 17.5 / brushed 27t -written as guidelines for local tracks and as an entry level class or perhaps allowed at a regional race.
Pro-stock = 13.5 this would be the lowest level at a state / National event
Modified = 10.5 this is probably the fastest 90% of us can handle, and its only going to get faster
Factory Mod or Open Mod = any Brushed or Brushless

With this scenario you have provided a slightly slower class for entry level and local tracks to model or tweak their programs after, or ignore.
Most of those entry level guys aren't going to a big race.
You still have only 3 classes at the National level, everyones motors are usable somewhere.
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Old 01-08-2008, 05:33 AM   #562
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Well I see alot of comments that entry level people aren't gonna go to these big races. I think that is a false statement. To a point at least. Entry level as in new to the hobby.... maybe true that they won't go to these big races. Entry level as in laps off pace at local club events, well I see them everywhere I have been. I've seen plenty of them at the Snowbirds. I see qualifying results from big races like Cleveland, Reedy, IIC, Nationals, etc. And I always see people way off leaders pace. Gotta remember that not everyone is as serious or as fast as the "fast" guys. But there are those willing to go around the country because they actually enjoy racing and hanging out with racers and friends. So I don't think eliminating the slower classes would be nice to those that support the hobby. Now if you wanted to make the Nationals an actual nationals. Then why not just have Mod Touring and Mod 12th scale and that's it. Just like the Worlds. Get my point? Sorry... back to B/L discussion..
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Old 01-08-2008, 05:38 AM   #563
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Has anyone been running a 17.5 enough to see if the correct pinion and spur will actually fit, either with 1/12th or sedan? I run a 100/40 on ny XRAY with foams to get the proper gearing (and by the way it does not over heat--about 140F).

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Old 01-08-2008, 06:58 AM   #564
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observations from racing BL.

current 13.5 tech is comparable to current brushed 19 turn. IMO

I know everyone is going to say no way not a chance, but after the Novak race and seeing how we can push the motor before the magic smoke comes out, which by the way they do let go of magic smoke very well, you do not get the straight away feel of the brushed 19 turn but the infield pull is the same or better and the 10.5 motor has no gain through the infield. You end up talking about a very very small diff, maybe a tenth or 2.

5 cell would be a excellent move with the brushless, take some of the punch out of the batteries side, run time would increase, motor heat goes down, cars break less. Racing becomes tighter, which becomes more fun for everyone.

I challenge everyone to try the 5 cell move on a practice day. Make sure you have a timing system in place so you can get real results and run some 6 and 5 cell packs. I know I was very surprised at how comparable the car was with 5 cells. You may need to adjust gearing just a touch.
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Old 01-08-2008, 07:00 AM   #565
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Originally Posted by Ted Flack View Post
Has anyone been running a 17.5 enough to see if the correct pinion and spur will actually fit, either with 1/12th or sedan? I run a 100/40 on ny XRAY with foams to get the proper gearing (and by the way it does not over heat--about 140F).


17.5 in a 12th scale needs rolled out around a 3.30 and a 2.30 in a touring car. HUGE pinions and micro spurs. This may be a problem in the X-Ray due to the motor screws not being accessible, but it might clear them all together if you dropped down to an 88 spur

"Roll out was done in inches"
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Old 01-08-2008, 07:33 AM   #566
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um... ok...

I suggest a membership advisory vote and get laughed at.. but if I didn't.. I would get flamed.... LOL

no winning here....

Seriously, lets just get this part done and get BL in the hands of those who want it and lets get to racing to see what changes are necessary for later in the year and into 2009.....

so many changes will require a lot of attention in a lot of different aspects....

we are completely changing what ROAR is about and what ROAR racing is about. Somebody is gonna be upset and somebody is gonna be happy.... hoping more are happy.
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Old 01-08-2008, 08:12 AM   #567
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Bob - love the "step in it" post. Are you coming to the 'Birds?

okay everybody - I HAVE THE SOLUTION.. 13.5 - MASTERS.

Regarding Bob's testing with 17.5, I had a feeling it would be too fast and many guys have said the 21.5 was still a little too fast compared to stock (on the oval anyways) They were going to try 25.5 but arcor was up against a deadline for a race/series. It (21.5) may be okay for the rest of the racing, who knows. I'd rather see a little more testing done. Tracks are open pretty much every day of the week.

Everyone posting information about BL motors needs to specifiy wind and rotor so we all understand just what were talking about.

I speak of sintered, as I dont know anyone still running bonded. Can you even buy a bonded rotor motor or are they pretty much all sintered?
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Old 01-08-2008, 08:16 AM   #568
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I'm a stock offroad racer currently running a 13.5. If ROAR decides to make 17.5 the new stock, I have no problems buying a new motor. From the money I've saved by not buying motor spray alone, I can pay for that new motor.
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Old 01-08-2008, 08:24 AM   #569
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The country accepted 13.5 as the stock equivalent because it was the slowest we had at the time. A lot of people wanted to go brushless (for any number of reasons) and most of them were from the intermediate racer down, so we all looked for the slowest motor. In recent months Novak introduced the 17.5 (as 13.5 speeds climbed) and now we're learning its closer to what a Co27 can run. I think we'll see that the torque of the BL motors have more of an influence in the 4cell cars, which is why I could see 17.5 beating a Co27 in 1/12th; but the Co27 beating the 17.5 in TC.
If the rules package for this year doesn't have an National class for the 13.5 motor you can either sell it to the BRL oval guys (we've pretty much decided on a four tier system because Open Mod has gotten crazy) or return it to Novak for a refurb 17.5 or 10.5 at half price (assuming it is a Novak).

As for gearing, I maxed my FK04 out at 84/60 (running 4cell oval) which gave me a 2.75" rollout (using old 50mm rims, with the new 53mm rims I can get to 2.90).
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Old 01-08-2008, 08:46 AM   #570
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I haven't read this thread in a few days and it is nice to not see the name calling and generalizations that seem to always accompany debate threads.

The move to change to brushless and lipo has encountered the following arguments against it:
1) brushless and lipo are too fast,
2) they are too expensive,
3) they will hurt hobby shop profitability
4) there are too many choices.

I fear that those that race and prefer brushed "stock" will not be happy until the novak 21.5 is the roar equivalent to "stock". These racers will accept brushless only after the brushless motor chosen stands no chance against a tuned stock. My simple question is how many racers will be running brushed motors in 2 years?

As some have mentioned, hobby shops should make money at their tracks by charging race and practice fees and by selling consumables such as tires, bodies and spare parts. After going to brushless and lipo, my motors and batteries are no longer consumables. There are few racers left that purchase all of their race gear at the local track/hobby shop. Why? Because it is too expensive. Especially, when someone can purchase many items used on rctech, or they purchase online and save $30 or $40 dollars. There have been threads on rctech covering how tracks can increase attendance and make more money. Unfortunately, it seems that many tracks rely on the racers to bring in more people, instead of promoting and advertising their own track.

Back to the b/l motor debate. The 13.5 is the accepted new "stock" motor at tracks around the country. All of the people that are saying the 13.5 is too fast for the poor newbies, where were all of these concerned racers as the brushed stock motors got faster and faster with each generation (every 1-2 years.) If there were 3 times as many racers in r/c as there are now, you could have the 17.5/13.5/10.5/open mod classes. At our track, you have 1 full heat of stock each weekend. How do you propose they be divided up?

If this debate was only about roar rules for sanctioned races, that is 1 thing, but the underlying purpose of this debate and the new rules is to set rules for club racing around the country. If the 17.5 is adopted as the new stock, all of the brushed racers will then complain that b/l racers should only use the 17.5 in the stock class.
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