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Old 01-07-2008, 07:19 PM   #526
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Originally Posted by Dawn Sanchez View Post
you mean gear your car accordingly.... not tweak the motor, right??
Yep thats exactly what I ment lol
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Old 01-07-2008, 07:20 PM   #527
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From what I've seen, cheating hasn't been a big issue with the oval crowd and they've been running brushless in various forms for a long time now. The motors are relatively easy to tech.
The way things are now it wouldn't be an issue. The only way to cheat would be to run a motor not allowed in the class. The thing I see that could be a problem in the future is cheating in the electronics. That is what happened in paintball and because there is a degree of electronic control in brushless and not just voltage as in brushed there exists the possibility of electronic cheating in the future. I'm not saying any of our current manufacturers would do it...but the possibility does exist.

I'll admit my knowledge of BL is very basic...esentially the way i understand it is the coils in the can are energized in order pulling the rotor around. The magnetic strength of the coils and the speed at which they are switched essentially is the limiting factor in how fast a motor can go. The magnetic strength is going to be pretty much the same for a given number of winds but the speed at which the coils are energized may change as technology changes. Then if you talk about limiting through the ESC now you know you have a motor ESC combination that is capable of more. The ESC could then be programmed with hidden mapping that gives that person just a little more RPM or a little more torque...just enough to gain an advantage but not be obvious about it.

Now I'm not saying any of our current manufacturers would do that...From what I've seen our manufacturers in general have more integrity then in other industries. But the possibility does exist. But then again I never thought top paintball manufacturers would do things like have hidden electronic mapping that makes the marker fire twice for every trigger pull, or ramp up to fully automatic fire, then reset to a perfectly legal mapping so it passes tech inspection. That's the kind of thing I'd like to see RC avoid happening.

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Old 01-07-2008, 07:28 PM   #528
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Some of us haven't had the honor of mastering every type of motor like you have

That was his whole point to guys posting opinions on motors they haven't tried.....

I don't know what the problem with going to 17.5 since it is clear that the 13.5 is faster on sedan than even a well tuned stock motor.....

open mod is open mod you can motor up or motor down....

10.5 is not the entry level to this sport and I can tell you that there is still a huge difference in speed between open mod and 10.5 if there wasn't then everyone would be running open mod.....
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Old 01-07-2008, 07:28 PM   #529
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In my opinion , no matter what BL. motor you decide is equivalent to a stock brushed motor, you could never run them together, for all the reason already mention.

I think Roar should leave the existing Stock brushed rules in affect, and just create new Stock Brushless class and rules .

Then offer both classes , and then set a minimum amount of entries for each class , and if they don't get enough for that class, then it wont be run.

I bet with in a short period time, Roar will see that nobody will want to race Stock Brushed any more and the class will just go away.

Just my 2 cents.
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Old 01-07-2008, 07:55 PM   #530
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If the 17.5 is chosen for stock, then it will not get its fair shake if brushed are allowed to run along with them at least in tc. A good brushed 27t will have the advantage over the 17.5 and will be chosen because of that. If the 17.5 is chosen for stock, I think it should just be the 17.5, no brushed with it.
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Old 01-07-2008, 07:56 PM   #531
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Devil's Advocate Time:

What does this mean for the Carpet Nats at the Plex?

Posted classes are:
1/10 Stock TC
1/10 19T TC
1/10 Mod TC
1/12 Stock
1/12 19T
1/12 Mod
One more class will be added but is not finalized.

We are all aware of "New Products Soon to be Released at Your LHS" timelines!!!

What if 17.5 is written into the Rules, and there is a snag where there are no motors for the race? If the Nats are to be a handout motor race, will The Plex be guaranteed a shipment (and from which manufacturer?) enough to satisfy all the racers and all the meltdowns that are sure to happen?

Or, will the new rules take into account that Stock is now "B.Y.O.BL"?

Or, will the 'New Rules' take effect on a certain date possibly after the Carpet Nats in March?

Allan

Last edited by Centerline Racing; 01-07-2008 at 10:05 PM.
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Old 01-07-2008, 08:01 PM   #532
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Old 01-07-2008, 08:01 PM   #533
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One more point that I haven't yet seen on the pages here...

If Stock is a "handout" motor, then all the discussion of combining the two, at least at the Regional/National level, is a moot point. Can't be done fairly with two motor types and technologies.

Wow! A problem has fixed itself!! Let's see that happens again in our lifetime.

Last edited by Centerline Racing; 01-07-2008 at 10:06 PM.
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Old 01-07-2008, 08:22 PM   #534
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People really need to stop looking at race results to make determinations on this, especially people whom will be deciding on the rules. I watched neary every main on Sun. in person. There is absolutely a noticable difference between mod, 10.5, and 13.5 even if the laptimes don't always make it seem that way.

Think of this in terms of autoX which is a hell of a lot more like the full scale of what we do than any actual road racing. Big square twisty courses with maybe one small straight. If you look at the results for the solo nationals the winner in C stock (Miata) was only about .6 seconds slower per lap than the Super Stock winner (Porsche GT3). Would anyone in the right mind ever argue that a GT3 isn't quite a bit faster than a Miata? Nope... .6 seconds per lap in full scale racing is a lifetime on a small course like autox where you can't fully use your power except on the straights, put it to scale and we're talking a .06 second difference... So, in 1/10th scale racing people talking about .2+ seconds not being enough difference between classes seems silly to me.

Watch the races and there is a pretty clear difference. I admit, 10.5 and 13.5may be a bit more iffy than the others, but there is a difference. Put the same classes that were running yesterday on a more wide open track and you'll see a much greater difference in laptimes. Just like if you put a GT3 and a Miata on a wide open track and the Miata gets crushed

By no means am I saying 17.5 is a bad idea, but 13.5 seems to suit racers well as a whole across the country. 17.5 would probably be a little too slow for a lot of people including many of the loyal stock racers currently, and 10.5 a little too fast for much of that same core group. Eliminate 13.5 and I think you piss off a lot of people and perhaps do more harm than good. Which is why I think an ESC profile to detune a 13.5 would be a great idea. But many people seem to think making people buy another motor that may or may not be run at a local level (17.5)...
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Old 01-07-2008, 08:26 PM   #535
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Originally Posted by ApexSpeed View Post
Odd statement, considering that 10.5 rubber tire and 13.5 rubber at the Novak race this weekend were virtually IDENTICAL A-main and lap times. How is the 10.5 "too fast" for you if you already race with a 13.5?

IMO, the 17.5 is the proper speed motor for "stock" class racing. Now if the car manufacturers would step up with some friendlier internal gear ratios so that we didn't have to run a mini spur and a mini spur bolted to the motor for gears.



Now, where'd my 60T pinion go?
Apex that's not odd at all.
I race at the same track as Kevin (Verndog) and there's a BIG difference between the two. This must be reiterated again and again- WE CANNOT USE THESE BIG RACE RESULTS AS A FOUNDATION OF THE RULES BEING CONSIDERED. ROAR National races & especially these HUGE carpet races and others, the 'cream' of drivers rise to the top and coupled with the size of these tracks, it's a no brainer that some classes are gonna look similar lap time wise. The vast majority of club racers don't come close to pushing their equipment to those limits. As AdrianM has posted on a similar thread (maybe it was this one), ALOT of the difference between BL motors that are like 3-4 winds apart is the 'FEEL' of them.
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Old 01-07-2008, 08:26 PM   #536
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Originally Posted by Centerline Racing View Post
Devil's Advocate Time:

What does this mean for the Carpet Nats at the Plex?

Posted classes are:
1/10 Stock TC
1/10 19T TC
1/10 Mod TC
1/12 Stock
1/12 19T
1/12 Mod
One more class will be added but is not finalized.

We are all aware of "New Products Soon to be Released at Your LHS" timelines!!!

What if there is a snag where 17.5 is written into the Rules, and there are no motors for the race? If the Nats are to be a handout motor race, will The Plex be guaranteed a shipment (and from which manufacturer?) enough to satisfy all the racers and all the meltdowns that are sure to happen?

Or, will the new rules take into account that Stock is now "B.Y.O.BL"?

Or, will the 'New Rules' take effect on a certain date possibly after the Carpet Nats in March?

Allan
Somewhat related to your points... Trackside ran out of 17.5 motors during the Novak race, I believe they ordered all that they could get. However, I'm not positive that was the case.
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Old 01-07-2008, 08:44 PM   #537
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Originally Posted by panther420 View Post
Somebody that is just starting out isn't going to spend $1200+ to travel to a national race.
Exactly. Which is why when Trinity had their spec touring car championships at Cleveland a few years back, as I recall, not one amateur did it, and Burch took the check.

At least that's how I recall it.
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Old 01-07-2008, 08:56 PM   #538
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Originally Posted by Dawn Sanchez View Post
please, EXPERTS out there.. help?? Should ROAR look at gearing and timing ratios in the guidelines/rules?
Only if you want to make tech harder and take longer when it's already hard enough to make that happen and find people to do it.

People will find their own gear ratios.
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Old 01-07-2008, 08:56 PM   #539
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Originally Posted by *Chrominator* View Post
In my opinion , no matter what BL. motor you decide is equivalent to a stock brushed motor, you could never run them together, for all the reason already mention.

I think Roar should leave the existing Stock brushed rules in affect, and just create new Stock Brushless class and rules .

Then offer both classes , and then set a minimum amount of entries for each class , and if they don't get enough for that class, then it wont be run.

I bet with in a short period time, Roar will see that nobody will want to race Stock Brushed any more and the class will just go away.

Just my 2 cents.
I second that,i said that before and it makes all the sence in the world.
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Old 01-07-2008, 08:58 PM   #540
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Dawn, I like what I'm hearing so far from your updates. Will ROAR be giving any considertion to increasing race length in...let's say what is currently stock and 19 turn classes for on-road?

We've been running 6 minutes here quite awhile now in both of those classes with 4200's and brushed motors with no problems.....not even close. Isn't it about time we start to move away from 5 minutes? There's a lot of capacity that's not being used in the current cells for these two classes. Six minutes has been great for us here.
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