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Old 01-07-2008, 03:40 PM   #496
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and second is that people do cheat at any level of competition.
That's going to be true no matter what system or class is used for a novice class. So why not make things easier and cheaper for the entry level racer of which the overwhelming majority won't try to cheat.
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Old 01-07-2008, 03:48 PM   #497
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That's going to be true no matter what system or class is used for a novice class. So why not make things easier and cheaper for the entry level racer of which the overwhelming majority won't try to cheat.

Oh I am all for that...it just has to be done smartly and try to keep out as many ways of cheating as possible. Cheating electronically is almost impossible to prove. I've allready seen it hurt one sport/hobby that I enjoy and I don't want to see it hurt RC as well.
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Old 01-07-2008, 03:50 PM   #498
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slowing the cars down will result in better racing. ask the oval guys.
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Old 01-07-2008, 04:30 PM   #499
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The future of how to keep the playing field even in SPEC racing.


Blow the Fuse, Blow the race...

Even if the one motor system could work and a motor like the 13.5 could be used for SPEC, NOVICE, INTERMEDIATE and the controller selects the race profile. Cheaters will try to cheat but it can be made harder. A few months ago I emailed Novak about making a TECHwizard tool that could make the one motor system work. In the end, our hobby does not have the technology or the mass cooperation of manufactures to do so.

I purposed making a gadget similar to the PitWizard that before a race the race director would connect to the car and set the racing mode. The tool would not reset the throttle positions but would reset the race mode when connected. Upon connection to the TECHwizard to the ESC, a diagnostic program seeks out "jumpers" and modifications in the hardware. Then the same diagnostics are run on the software. Once the ESC is verified to be unaltered the racing parameters are loded and the car is placed on the track. In theory it should take less than 30 seconds per car to tech and set race modes.

The race parameters that I suggested using were: Max Amps, Max RPM, Simulated KV

The idea sounded great, the race director being able to adjust the general speed of all the cars without changing motors. Racers would just buy a Tech-ie ESC and motor and they should be able to start off in Novice and with out the need for new motors advance to the 13.5 class. Also if the director thought the speeds of certain classes too fast just a few buttons pressed and the speeds for all the cars are changed.
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Old 01-07-2008, 04:49 PM   #500
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I thought of the fuse idea. One underlying problem, if a racer hits a board and holds the throttle too long, the fuse will blow from the amp spike...
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Old 01-07-2008, 04:50 PM   #501
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Blow the Fuse, Blow the race...
I would just use a fuse from a Reedy charger...

From what I've seen, cheating hasn't been a big issue with the oval crowd and they've been running brushless in various forms for a long time now. The motors are relatively easy to tech.

The speed control programming doesn't bother me. Fact is the average racer can't compete with the factory drivers that can get prototypes anyways. It's a non issue for me. Also, of companies make the new profiles available for update (See Mamba and Tekin) it's not a big deal.
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Old 01-07-2008, 05:22 PM   #502
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Somebody that is just starting out isn't going to spend $1200+ to travel to a national race. What if they kept things the same at the national level 13.5 (or whatever ends up equal to 27T), 10.5/19T, and open mod, and just find a brushless that is even with the 27T motors because that seems to be the biggest dispute here. The 17.5 would be good for people starting out at the club level.
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Old 01-07-2008, 05:41 PM   #503
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Somebody that is just starting out isn't going to spend $1200+ to travel to a national race. What if they kept things the same at the national level 13.5 (or whatever ends up equal to 27T), 10.5/19T, and open mod, and just find a brushless that is even with the 27T motors because that seems to be the biggest dispute here. The 17.5 would be good for people starting out at the club level.

gosh, so many ROAR forums active in this place... and.. what great conversations! I've been reading for over an hour now and I still have several pages to get through on another thread......

I would feel pretty safe in assuring you guys that stock will be the 17.5 equiv and 19T (we need to change that name, so lets call it "limited" for now) should be the 10.5. 13.5 to open modified is too big a jump.... we all have seen that. In off road, the 13.5 is more stock, that I have seen, so better to err on the side of conservatism and ensure everybody has the chance to be competitive.... (BTW, earlier in this conversation I stated several things that the above post might contradict... I changed my mind on many things mostly due to you guys and this great conversation!)



What I need to know is what is the typical gearing and timing settings for on road paved and carpet set ups? With these BL's, they'll take anything.... but I heard of a lot of 'burning down the house' stuff at the race this past weekend with such high gearing.....

please, EXPERTS out there.. help?? Should ROAR look at gearing and timing ratios in the guidelines/rules?
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Old 01-07-2008, 05:50 PM   #504
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[QUOTE=Dawn Sanchez;4049309] With these BL's, they'll take anything.... but I heard of a lot of 'burning down the house' stuff at the race this past weekend with such high gearing.....
QUOTE]

That was just Todd Beardmore, he burns all his motors up joking with ya todd
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Old 01-07-2008, 05:54 PM   #505
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What I need to know is what is the typical gearing and timing settings for on road paved and carpet set ups? With these BL's, they'll take anything.... but I heard of a lot of 'burning down the house' stuff at the race this past weekend with such high gearing.....

please, EXPERTS out there.. help?? Should ROAR look at gearing and timing ratios in the guidelines/rules?
I'm not exactly an "expert", but I'd say ROAR doesn't need to create rules re: gearing, etc. In "real" racing the driver and tuning staff have RPM limits, coolant and lubricant temperature limits, exhaust gas temp limits, etc and exceed them at their own peril. Abuse the equipment too much and you DNF. Why should it be any different in RC.

I always laughed when we heard people talking about how you couldn't run Mod on 6 cells now because it was just creating too much heat because now with battery mah and voltage so high you can gear higher than ever and make time but the increased voltage was frying stuff, yada yada yada. Guess what, just because you CAN fit bigger gears doesn't mean you HAVE to. As anybody who's tuned a 2-cycle engine the adage is (re: leaning mixture) they ALWAYS make the most power right before they seize.
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Old 01-07-2008, 06:09 PM   #506
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Originally Posted by Dawn Sanchez View Post
I would feel pretty safe in assuring you guys that stock will be the 17.5 equiv and 19T (we need to change that name, so lets call it "limited" for now) should be the 10.5. 13.5 to open modified is too big a jump....
Bad news for many of us. I just got into onroad this year and "thought" I was all geared up ($250.00 worth of 2 13.5's bearings, rotors, ect.). 17.5 I have no interest in, and 10.5 is going to prob. be too fast for me...no choice...I will eventually move "up" to 10.5....there you have it Fred...thought I was breaking too many parts in 13.5...now we'll see what breaking really is. I know...this is ROAR only...but this will have a trickle down effect to all club racing sooner or later IMO.
So...when would the new rules start??

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What I need to know is what is the typical gearing and timing settings for on road paved and carpet set ups? With these BL's, they'll take anything.... but I heard of a lot of 'burning down the house' stuff at the race this past weekend with such high gearing.....please, EXPERTS out there.. help?? Should ROAR look at gearing and timing ratios in the guidelines/rules?
Not an expert just an opinion. I think you need to leave these issues alone and approve motor and rotor only. Part of racing is letting guys find limits, tie too many hands and people may get bored because the "hobby" part is gone...nothing left to "play" with. Timing and gearing limit themselves with heat issues, and those issues will let racers find their own combination and limits.
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Old 01-07-2008, 06:18 PM   #507
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I know...this is ROAR only...but this will have a trickle down effect to all club racing sooner or later IMO.
So...when would the new rules start??
They aren't set yet.. I am just saying that's where I think we'll end up.. so don't pull the kleenex out just yet

We have to consider all forms of racing with general competition rules and approvals of motors. 17.5 is general enough for stock class at NATIONALS but maybe not enough for lower level racing, such as regional and state events. We have to consider what is fair for all and be conservative enough in those decisions for future growth and change.

Honestly, 2 weeks ago, I didn't want to combine stock Brushed and Brushless..... Lets see where this goes in 2008 and open up our minds for 2009.

The rules will be in place once the Excom has made the definitive decisions based on recommendations from MFG committee's suggesting and writing the proposed rules and class committee recommendations received a few weeks ago. The 2008 rule book should be available for download by the end of January, God willing....

we want to ensure EVERYTHING has been considered. For example, there's more to Lipo inclusion than just saying yes...
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Old 01-07-2008, 06:19 PM   #508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn Sanchez
...13.5 to open modified is too big a jump.... we all have seen that.
Dawn,

Is this experience being seen in offroad? Just from what I saw from the results this past weekend from the Novak results, the 13.5 were about a lap or so off the mod, which doesn't seem like too big of a jump to me, but I suppose that's my opinion. On the other hand, the 10.5 class TQ would have qualified for the mod A (I think). If the 10.5 is almost as fast as mod, this makes for a very small jump, but could it be too big of a jump for the 17.5 guys to jump to basically mod speeds?

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Old 01-07-2008, 06:22 PM   #509
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Originally Posted by Dawn Sanchez View Post
I would feel pretty safe in assuring you guys that stock will be the 17.5 equiv and 19T (we need to change that name, so lets call it "limited" for now) should be the 10.5. 13.5 to open modified is too big a jump.... we all have seen that.
Well there you have it. Now we will see how long it will take for companies to catch up. Novak, start mass producing!

My track, I'm guessing, will follow suit. The tracks owner's son ran at the Novak race in the Sportsman class. So I know he's open to the 17.5.
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Old 01-07-2008, 06:22 PM   #510
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Dawn,

Is this experience being seen in offroad? Just from what I saw from the results this past weekend from the Novak results, the 13.5 were about a lap or so off the mod, which doesn't seem like too big of a jump to me, but I suppose that's my opinion. On the other hand, the 10.5 class TQ would have qualified for the mod A (I think). If the 10.5 is almost as fast as mod, this makes for a very small jump, but could it be too big of a jump for the 17.5 guys to jump to basically mod speeds?

Brian
Actually, in off road, I haven't seen a huge jump at all in these motors. I've been asking and asking every off roader I know.. and again, the differences are not that significant. So, we can't use off road as a determining factor in this...

This weekend, while I watched very intently the top racers times and the lower mains.. what I learned was.. gearing was the key to the event and how many motors did you intend on using up..... For the Joe Racer (privateer), thats not an option that ROAR will consider.

So, I am not sure we can honestly go by those times to make the decisions.. but I feel we need to go by whats being done locally NOW to make our decisions and then go a little more conservative than that to give us room to grow and change the specs.
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