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Old 01-07-2008, 02:01 AM   #466
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Originally Posted by darnold View Post
Insptgadget- Excellent observations also. The one hole you pointed out is partially mitigated by the changing battery technology. Even so, with the "new battery of the year" cycle the only way a person gets caught out is if they want to race a different class during the season. Even with this change the different battery classes would only come into play on a regional or national level, thus a person could have some packs for a different class such as GT3 to run at their local track but only use their "main class" packs (say GT2) for big races.
Thank you...as for the packs that works fine for the racers who can and do go to big races but for those of us who just race locally and don't have family to pass the old packs on to it doesn't work out.
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Old 01-07-2008, 02:04 AM   #467
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Wait a tick... are you suggesting that I was a resident? I don't remember anymore...I might have been... you know, on several occasions, a few of them would bake cookies for us, as kind of an extended family. I kind of miss it a bit now that I'm talking about it. How cool to brighten somebodys day.

The idea of limiting devices surfaces all the time. As I recall a stand alone box ended up quite big to carry on the car, and to put something in a speedo seems reasonable. I dabble with turning down my high speed EPA all the time. And they take it. Although I think there is a limit there.

We can't effectively make a decision on existing technology. "pick any 3 of these motors...".

I can't help but think that the companys that make esc's would never agree on a technology. Especially when what it really would come down to is them spending a LOT of money, and I mean A LOT OF MONEY. to cooperatively develop a product that is intended to make us slower against our wishes, but possibly our own benefit. So that they can then try and advertise who did the better job of it and take market share from the other guy. The industry just isn't that big I'm afraid.

Tekin has been working on the R1 for quite a while. I'm finally going to play with one this week (I try to use everybodys gear, don't like to play favorites). I don't know that I'd want to be the ones to tell them, "cool, looks good, glad you got it out. So... uh...yea, interested in starting over again, right now"? We don't know what we want, can't agree on the limits or the technology, but if you could get crack-a-lackin' on that, that would be great.

Now that I think about it. Likely it would become the new catch phrase for people that like to say things like "Stock motor of the week", or "battery of the week". It would become speedo of the week as the technology were improved.

Be nifty if they could, but I can't imagine a workable scenario.

Almost be easier to set a club "rollout" rule. If everybody wants to see something work in a club, it's a self policing rule. you check the rollout of the top 3 cars after the main event, and it had better fit in the parameter established.
My hope is that they could simply add the profile to an existing speed control. Also, hopefully ROAR could decide on the limiting factor in the technology and discuss how and how much with various manufacturers. Also, the standard for how to limit it could be set and hopefulyl stay about equal until it seems it's time again to adress slowing down the newbie class based on speeds increasing. Maybe it's just a pipe dream...
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Old 01-07-2008, 02:10 AM   #468
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Oh man, I'll argue with you for a long time on this one. If a person wants to increase the value of the hobby to new people, fringe people and people that are in, thinking they should get out, you need to be able to show some "bang for the buck".

Let's see, what would I rather have, an hour of track time on race day, or 8 minutes. No brainer.

I didn't make the first few 45 minute mains I had a chance to. And man, when I did... IT WAS FREAKING AWESOME! It's real racing. And I'm lucky enough to weasel my way into a few long mains every year. You actually have time to screw up a few small things. You have to plan, calculate stuff like tire wear, receiver pack times, everything.

And when you come off the track, your tires are freaking bald, pieces of the car are bent, the pipe is full of dents, the anodizing burned off the head and the header, the car is a disaster and looks "used up"... I love a long event for nitro.

We can have this "finally" for electric (and it's a whole lot cleaner). I've been testing it for years. It's a blast, and all the guys in the related clubs I had test it were blown away. Hmm, 3 heats and a main at 8 minutes each, 32 minutes. OR, 3 fifteen minute heats and a 20 minute main, 65 minutes.

The hardest part I see at club races is getting dudes on the stand in a timely manner. 2 minutes between heats becomes 10 minutes almost every time... Once you got marshals and a stand full of drivers, time flies.

You're just using your time more effectively. And getting a better value.

If races have to be cutoff at 150-200 entrys, FINALLY, you have a good thing. Guess what? It's prestigious, even for the a newer guy. Not everybody gets to go. I'd gladly pay an extra $50 if it doubles my track time. Especially if I'm already out $2000 for airfare and hotel... not to mention a week off work.

You know as well as I do, the best bench racing storys most of us have, have come from long heats and mains. Where some crazy thing happened, and you had to make the best of it, and 5 guys flamed at 30 minutes and sure, they had you covered by 2 seconds a lap, most of them took 3-4 laps to get it going again, now you're 3 laps up, but your tires are about shot, and you can feel your servo getting slower, and the body has been dragging on the tire for about 10 minutes now and actually melted a hole in the body. Front camber link is loose now and kinda flopping... you stoppin??? NO WAY... its only cost you about a second a lap, and you're in third. 10 minutes to go, and you're car is rattling apart, the last time your pit guy yelled up something that sound like "you're at 370 degrees..." you stoppin??? NO WAY...

Everybody's yelling stuff to everybody, you can't hear a thing, your eyes are watering because you haven't blinked more than about 4 times in the last 38 minutes and you're kind of staring at the sun. You're pit guy is taking WAY to long to get gas in the car, and you yell down that you don't care if only half of the entire fuel bottle actually gets in the tank and the rest blows all over the chassis... JUST HURRY UP.. Oh crap... my brakes wet... not a big, only 4 minutes left... ;o)

I love that stuff.

We ran 35 and 45 minute races in electrics for over 15 years in our F1 class. Couldn't do it on 1 battery at the time but pit stops on a F103 chassis using the battery door mod were quite quick. I miss that racing...our F1 class finally died off 2 years ago but a 15+ year streak isn't a bad run for a single racing series That was some of the most fun racing I've ever been in but turn marshalling a 45 minute race after racing a 45 minute race was pretty harsh.
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Old 01-07-2008, 02:21 AM   #469
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The problem I have with power limiting profiles is that opens the door to "cheater profiles". This is where the profile would start out in limited mode to pass inspection then ramp up to a faster mode, not fast enough to be noticibly faster but fast enough to give an edge, then ramp back down at the end to once again pass inspection. This happened in paintball when the markers went from mechanical firing to electronic firing. The problem was so bad that the only way around the problem was to legalize everything.
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Old 01-07-2008, 06:34 AM   #470
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If we want to run longer races and heats like Bob was talking about why not run 2 heats instead of 3. Still get more quality track time but save on the wasted time between heats while everyone is waiting for that one driver that is always late.
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Old 01-07-2008, 07:02 AM   #471
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Originally Posted by C_O_jones View Post
One major point that hasn't come up yet:

How does the B/L Lipo class change over effect the hobby shop and most of all the hobby shop race track combo?

Hobby shops, especially with race tracks need sales to existing racers not just new people.
So we all go BL and lipo, a BL will last what, a year or two and pretty much the same for lipo's. So the shop will sell a, as in one BL speedo, one BL motor, maybe two, one maybe two lipo's for a two year period per racer.
Now you don't need to buy a com lathe, com sticks, springs, brushes, motor master, motor spray, and at least a spare motor, maybe twice a year for motors, and you won't need a discharger anymore either, right?
That is a good portion of the shops income gone, what is going to replace the lost income? These race tracks aren't swimming in money and a lot are closing down.
Where ya gunna race?

Dawn should be able the chime in on this from first hand experience.

Just another aspect of BL/lipo to consider.
At my local track, this is already happening. We're almost all brushless.

What needs to happen is a class where we can get new people racing again. New racers will bring in new money for the shops and tracks. This is the way to a more healthy hobby/sport. A hobby shop/track will make more money from 50 racers that buy parts and tires from the shop (and race) than they will from 10 or 20 guys that race and buy a new motor once a month or a $5 set of brushes once a week.

Last edited by Unregistered; 01-07-2008 at 07:12 AM.
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Old 01-07-2008, 07:10 AM   #472
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Adrian mentioned a while back that he want's to run 10.5 locally.

I think that it's important to note that Dawn isn't saying that the local clubs "must run these classes only" but they are the classes that will be run at a regional and national level. If your local track needs a 10.5 class then go for it.

On the flip side, if your local track needs a 21.5 class (or mabuchi) then that's great. Anything to get more people racing again.
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Old 01-07-2008, 07:26 AM   #473
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The one thing I love about this hobby is the "tech" side of the game. I really enjoy working on my stuff on a Sunday while watching football or a NASCAR race. I always took great pride in the speed of my car after working on the motors trying to make the "stockers" run better.

I can understand that brushless is the way of the future BUT how fun is it to just throw a brushless system in and go. I know of MANY racers who feel this way and still run brushed because of it. Whatever ROAR decides to do, I hope it's "phased in" and brushed will be legal for some time.
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Old 01-07-2008, 08:29 AM   #474
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Originally Posted by C_O_jones View Post
One major point that hasn't come up yet:

How does the B/L Lipo class change over effect the hobby shop and most of all the hobby shop race track combo?

Hobby shops, especially with race tracks need sales to existing racers not just new people.
So we all go BL and lipo, a BL will last what, a year or two and pretty much the same for lipo's. So the shop will sell a, as in one BL speedo, one BL motor, maybe two, one maybe two lipo's for a two year period per racer.
Now you don't need to buy a com lathe, com sticks, springs, brushes, motor master, motor spray, and at least a spare motor, maybe twice a year for motors, and you won't need a discharger anymore either, right?
That is a good portion of the shops income gone, what is going to replace the lost income? These race tracks aren't swimming in money and a lot are closing down.
Where ya gunna race?

Dawn should be able the chime in on this from first hand experience.

Just another aspect of BL/lipo to consider.
Even though this is off-topic, I'd like to provide some anecdotal info:

1) The lhs/track owner never counted on people buying motors and batteries from him to keep the doors open. He depends on track fees and selling kits and consumables like tires, parts, motor spray, etc... BL/LiPo doesn't change that.

2) After legalizing BL/LiPo, many local racers "rewarded" the track owner for making those decisions by purchasing all of their BL/LiPo stuff from him. Changing the rules actually created sales that he would have never made otherwise.

3) Legalizing LiPo meant that guys who usually only sign up for one class are now signing up for two classes and guys who usually sign up for 2 classes are now signing up for 3 classes, which obviously raises the number of entries on any given day race day and increases the amount of consumables, especially tires, that he can sell.

Based on what I've seen, the new rules have actually helped the track's financial situation more than hurt it.
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Old 01-07-2008, 08:35 AM   #475
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All very interesting suggestions, but how is ROAR going to integrate all this and still conform to IFMAR standards. I think a lot of what you guys want to do is far beyond what ROAR is really about. What you want to do locally is all fine but part of ROARs responsibilities is for a standardized race format that can be used regionally, nationally and on a world format.

I know some of you will say "we" have to set the standards, but some of what your'e asking is beyond what they (ROAR) are able to do, and if you ask them they will become just like some of the other defunct organizations, the IFMAR affiliation is a very powerfull alliance, don't throw it away.

Ask guys like Hustings and Reedy they can give you more insight on how this whole affiliation works first hand.
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Old 01-07-2008, 08:37 AM   #476
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Originally Posted by Leodis View Post
Even though this is off-topic, I'd like to provide some anecdotal info:

1) The lhs/track owner never counted on people buying motors and batteries from him to keep the doors open. He depends on track fees and selling kits and consumables like tires, parts, motor spray, etc... BL/LiPo doesn't change that.

2) After legalizing BL/LiPo, many local racers "rewarded" the track owner for making those decisions by purchasing all of their BL/LiPo stuff from him. Changing the rules actually created sales that he would have never made otherwise.

3) Legalizing LiPo meant that guys who usually only sign up for one class are now signing up for two classes and guys who usually sign up for 2 classes are now signing up for 3 classes, which obviously raises the number of entries on any given day race day and increases the amount of consumables, especially tires, that he can sell.

Based on what I've seen, the new rules have actually helped the track's financial situation more than hurt it.
And to add one more point...

I think the rule changes, at least for the stock class, theoretically are going to help new comers. The more new comers the more business for track owners.
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Old 01-07-2008, 08:47 AM   #477
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17.5 tc - 6 minutes
13.5 tc - 6 minutes
mod tc w/4.5 motor limit - 6 minutes

17.5 12th - 8 minutes
13.5 12th - 8 minutes
mod 12th w/4.5 motor - 8 minutes

Keep the current batteries at 4600 mah and do not allow for a higher capacity to be considered for 2 years. Gives plenty of time for testing/development and more certainty of a good cell.

At a National level event limit the entry to one per scale. This will keep some of the big guns out of the lower classes, but that seems to be already taking place as a lot of teams are moving their big guns down to the current "stock" classes.
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Old 01-07-2008, 08:51 AM   #478
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And to add one more point...

I think the rule changes, at least for the stock class, theoretically are going to help new comers. The more new comers the more business for track owners.
Very true. My local track hasn't seen a massive influx of noobs, but BL/LiPo has attracted many "newcomers" that used to race electric back in the glory days, but moved on to nitro. BL/LiPo made many of them give electric a second chance.
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Old 01-07-2008, 08:52 AM   #479
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I think brushless is a great idea for entry level racers. New racers want to drive their cars, not change brushes on the motor every time they go to the track. Brushless motors will help new drivers learn to drive, less motor maintenance equals more track time equals more FUN!
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Old 01-07-2008, 08:53 AM   #480
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I believe there are technical limitations to limiting current in an ESC. Something about running at 75% producing more heat (and wear on the components) than running at 100%, since the FETs have to burn off the extra juice. That's probably not exactly right, but my feeble memory recalls something along those lines. It's been suggested before, though. One of Novak's early BL ESC's had that option, but it was dropped.
The Hacker Master Car controller and Shultze U-Force controllers had current limiting from 30 amps to unlimited.
You could run just one Motor for Mod and 19t.
The Shultze has Dip switches to lock down the settings.
These are sensorless controllers, so i don't know if the sensored controllers have limits on this feature.
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