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Old 01-06-2008, 11:16 PM   #451
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Here is another thought,

I understand there is now a 540 silver can equivilant brushless motor, this could be used in the stock class.

There is a local club that runs a new class it is very popular certainly worth mentioning here

"This is a local class. The principle of this class is to provide cost effective (cheap) racing, where all drivers are driving (as near as possible) equal cars. The racing is then down to drivers skill.

It will provide a stepping stone for drivers coming up from novice, or a competitive class for more experienced drivers.

Eligible chassis - Tamiya TT-01 (standard kit or RTR version only. Not the TT-01R and TT-01D "drift" versions)

Scrutineering can / will be carried out by the other drivers in the class on the day if deemed necessary.

Allowable modifications (if it is not mentioned here specifically, then it is not allowed)

Any rubber tyres allowed. No foams

Any wheels allowed

Any inserts allowed

Bearings - Full bearing upgrade allowed.

Batteries - Maximum capacity 3000mAh NiCd or NiMh

Motor - Silver can Johnson or Mabuchi 540 only

Connectors, standard bullet and Tamiya connectors as furnished in kit

Gearing - Max gear ratio is 25-55 using Tamiya option gears, standard TT-01 pitch.

Axles, optional wider axles (from spare dogbones bag) and hexes are allowed to let the wheels fill the wheel wells properly when using narrow offset non-Tamiya wheels

ESC - Only Tamiya TEU-101-BK " (castlemaine website)


This have proven exceptionally popular with slightly advanced novice racers, the add a set of bearings and a high speed gear set and they move up a class.
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Old 01-06-2008, 11:20 PM   #452
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Bob- Josh's idea wasn't to stop with just 10.5 but to have one more class that went down to 5.5. I threw my idea in on the 5.5 by making it 7.5. For me one of the great points of your idea was clearer, more enticing class designations, however I do not think that it must be only 3 classes, I actually think 4 works better for more applications (12th, TC, Off-Road, etc.).

Some things to consider about all of this, the examples are fictitious and should be taken as simply a way to visualize the thoughts.

1. There needs to be some general rules, ie: GT categories with motor specific designations with maybe increased run times in the lower categories while utilizing the same batteries, thereby further limiting the speed in each class.

2. There will probably need to be some class specific rule amendments, ie: NiMh's in 12th but Lipo's with 7.2v or NiMh's can be used in off road, while Lipo's with a little less voltage or NiMh's would be used in TC and Oval would really look at the BRL(?) for guidance.

3. Consideration beyond our own racing desires may be prudent so that a broader picture can be taken, ie: I think 17.5 is too slow and want to run 13.5 but think 10.5 is too fast or not distinctive enough from 13.5 so it should be dropped.

4. We need to be careful about basing things so much upon what goes on in our region or our own perceptions and then generalizing it for the rest of the country, ie: We like longer races so the rest of the country will think its a great idea so we need to do that. Even with the tremendous response on this thread we are probably representing less than 20% of the "racers", whatever that term means, in America.

5. It should be considered that in just 2 short years batteries will increase the speed of every motor that is being talked about, a little future vision would do us well. Also, batteries will be made with or without RC so any "freeze" period (whether 6 months, 1 year or 2 years) would be an internal discipline and not an external communique to the battery manufacturers if people/ROAR/IFMAR deemed this a good thing. Nuff' said on that one.

6. We must realize that a vision statement for RC in America/World does not appear to have been crafted...yet. Thus previewing future technologies and determining what can be used, how it can be used and how it can be phased in so that RC as a whole prospers is still a work in progress. Tweaking, as some have indicated, will commence.

7. Finally, it is a pleasure to read so many thoughtful and informative posts. I am sure that all of this will greatly contribute to ROAR's decision and the future betterment of RC.
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Old 01-06-2008, 11:38 PM   #453
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So in a few weeks ROAR will release their new updated rules for electric racing with regards to batteries and motors. How will this effect racing in your areas?

Most likely it will not affect any of what we are racing locally. Or maybe in time it will. It will affect Roar regionals and Nationals from classes being raced and equipment being used. These new rules will help guide local tracks in deciding what will work best for there respective areas. What will work best in the local areas that will bring the most amounts of racers to fair and competitive racing.

I would also report that at our club track there are many racers still using brushed motors. In fact the brushed motor has never been so good. My point is what ever Roar decides it will have to decide with the frame work for both types of motors (at least for this year). The brushed motor is not dead but very much around.

I know when I go to the Carpet Nationals I will expect a stock class (gt1), a Modified class (gt3), and then a middle class (13.5 or 19 turn or 10.5) (gt2). Realistically there isnít much room or time to have much more than three classes per scale. Since I enjoy brushless I am pulling for the 13.5 to replace 19 turn. The main reason is that so many 13.5ís are in the market place. Obviously gt1, sportsman, stock what ever you want to call the class will still be brushed. However at the local races I see no reason not to allow a brushless equivalent to race with a brushed motor (17.5 or 13.5).

I see no reason not to allow Lipo in all classes as long as Roarís new tech guy defines what can be allowed (hard case, fused, no more than 5000mah/3600mah, basic dimensions as 6 sub cís, car weights are the same, charging bag, and what ever else is needed).

Obviously what ever ROAR decides to use as their model for this year can be changed if it is determined that the basic principles of fairness and competitive racing is not being damaged.
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Old 01-06-2008, 11:44 PM   #454
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I just had a thought and I'm just throwing this out there, so do not throw too much hatred to me. There has been much discussion on how to get sponsored drivers to move out of a class or in some cases not to drop down a class. After some thought (15 secs) what about making the "stock" class run a different body like a Saleen or something like it....still sporty though. This would be for a 17.5 class or 21.5 class that is meant for the newer racer
and should be a class that would be too slow for the experienced.

When I first started racing in the early 80's, with a 1/12th scale car there was a Production Class and it was the beginner class of the time. The car had to be kept in "Box stock" form and could not even have bearings. But the main thing from a spectator standpoint was that they ran a car body (Maserati, sp?) was the popular of choice, while the other classes ran the TOJ body or similar.

Is this too radical of a change, does it make things any better? Again this is just a thought from someone who would like to see the racing environment be improved for the newer racers.

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Old 01-06-2008, 11:53 PM   #455
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Something just kind of struck me while I was browing through a forum for my real car. I used to own a tuning device called an Accessport on my last car, it had various tuning maps that I could chose from that fed the ECU, not all that different from what an ESC does. In addition to my race gas and 93 octane map, it had an economy (slower and more fuel efficient), and a valet mode which totally neutered the car. How does this relate to RC you ask? Well let me tell you!

The ESCs we use in our cars are quite programable and have various profiles. It would be such a simple thing to have a profile added to all new ESCs hitting the market (that want to be ROAR legal for this clas) which would slow the car down to about 50-75% of the full power a motor is capable of (perhaps limit it to a certain RPM). This scenario would be good for a few reasons...

1.) It would allow the new racer to race in a class where everyone is required to run that profile on their ESC and slow things down, which is a big part of why we're having this discussion. Sure, it would be easy to cheat, but make it different enough in speed that it's pretty easy to tell that the car is going too fast. Or simply have an LED on the ESC to indicate that the profile is enabled. Also, if someone feels the need to go fast so badly that they need to cheat, they shouldn't be running in a beginner class.

2.) After a few months in this class, 13.5 with the newbie profile, the newbie racer is ready to go faster and move up to the next class. They don't need to go drop another 60-$80 on a new motor after spending a bunch of money to start racing. All they need to do is hit a button on their ESC and they're in a new class of racing and going faster.

3.) This would also allow the new racer to feel his way around with what he feels ready for. After feeling confident that he can go faster and do well all he needs to do is show up at the track for practice, hit the button on his ESC, and see how things go... No spending money just to see if they're ready and no messing around with swapping out motors just to experiment a little.

4.) It condenses the classes in a way. You get two different classes without worrying about what different motor to use. Also, no more worries about battery voltage. This is something that could be throttled back in the future to offset batteries bringing voltage up. This year if 75% is the standard in a couple years maybe 65% would be better. It creates a small problem with existing ESCs, but that shouldn't be an issue since people with the older ESC should have moved on to a faster class by then. For second hand gear perhaps a service could be offered by LRP, Novak, etc. to reprogram the ECU to the current specs for a small fee.

I can't say for sure, but I would bet this is something that ESC manufacturers could get put into place in a few weeks time. All it would really take to figure out if this is possible is for ROAR to call around to a few different manufacturers so see if they would be on board and how easy/difficult it would be. Then ROAR would just have to set the guidelines for RPMs or what percentage of power the ESC profile would provide. They could even have manufacturers submit an ESC for approval to make sure everyone is being honest. However, I don't see it as being a problem since the manufacturers won't be selling any ESCs because some kid just won the local sportsman race using a certain manufacturers ESC.

Just tossing it out there... What do you guys think?

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Old 01-06-2008, 11:55 PM   #456
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One major point that hasn't come up yet:

How does the B/L Lipo class change over effect the hobby shop and most of all the hobby shop race track combo?

Hobby shops, especially with race tracks need sales to existing racers not just new people.
So we all go BL and lipo, a BL will last what, a year or two and pretty much the same for lipo's. So the shop will sell a, as in one BL speedo, one BL motor, maybe two, one maybe two lipo's for a two year period per racer.
Now you don't need to buy a com lathe, com sticks, springs, brushes, motor master, motor spray, and at least a spare motor, maybe twice a year for motors, and you won't need a discharger anymore either, right?
That is a good portion of the shops income gone, what is going to replace the lost income? These race tracks aren't swimming in money and a lot are closing down.
Where ya gunna race?

Dawn should be able the chime in on this from first hand experience.

Just another aspect of BL/lipo to consider.
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Old 01-07-2008, 12:06 AM   #457
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Originally Posted by C_O_jones View Post
One major point that hasn't come up yet:

How does the B/L Lipo class change over effect the hobby shop and most of all the hobby shop race track combo?

Hobby shops, especially with race tracks need sales to existing racers not just new people.
So we all go BL and lipo, a BL will last what, a year or two and pretty much the same for lipo's. So the shop will sell a, as in one BL speedo, one BL motor, maybe two, one maybe two lipo's for a two year period per racer.
Now you don't need to buy a com lathe, com sticks, springs, brushes, motor master, motor spray, and at least a spare motor, maybe twice a year for motors, and you won't need a discharger anymore either, right?
That is a good portion of the shops income gone, what is going to replace the lost income? These race tracks aren't swimming in money and a lot are closing down.
Where ya gunna race?

Dawn should be able the chime in on this from first hand experience.

Just another aspect of BL/lipo to consider.
While I think that is a legitimate concern I think there are a few things that will offset it. Hopefully the new cheaper form of racing will draw more people to the track, and more racers means more sales. So a hobbyshop might sell $3,000 less in stock motors over the cource of a year, hopefully they have 15 more new racers that come in and buy a brushles system for $250, a new car, charger, transmitter, the works... You'll also have 15 new racers buying all the other items any racers will go through, tire dressing, tires, and car parts.

Also, I know if have a limit as to how much I can spend on my hobbies. I'm not made of money... If I'm not spending so much money on battery packs, motors, brushes, whatever, that frees up more funds for other things. Maybe I'd get that 1/12th scale car to mess around with or run a new class, maybe I'd be more willing to buy a new chassis more often when a new model comes out. In fact, I know I'd be. After having all my stuff stolen I'm cutting corners to get back into racing. Instead of getting that new brushless system I want I'm settling for a used GTX. Instead of buying that RDX PHI I want I'm using the RDX that was sitting in my house on a table because I wasn't racing it at the time. Instead of getting the CE GFX charger I want I bought a Checkpoint charger. I think you get the picture...
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Old 01-07-2008, 12:07 AM   #458
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Good points C_O, (Fred)

The hobby shops would have to at least in small part hope that the racing looks so much more attractive that it attracts many new racers. They would certainly sell less of the common consumables. The bad thing though is its happening anyway even if they never become legal to race, which we know that they are going to be (BL, and Lipo).


Ike,

Your idea sounds pretty cool too, would be nice to hear from a major Manufacturer like Bob Novak (or his employees) himself if that's possible.




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Old 01-07-2008, 12:10 AM   #459
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Good points C_O, (Fred)

The hobby shops would have to at least in small part hope that the racing looks so much more attractive that it attracts many new racers. They would certainly sell less of the common consumables. The bad thing though is its happening anyway even if they never become legal to race, which we know that they are going to be (BL, and Lipo).


Ike,

Your idea sounds pretty cool too, would be nice to hear from a major Manufacturer like Bob Novak (or his employees) himself if that's possible.




Steve
Wish I had thought of it 12 hours earlier, I could have asked Bob and/or Charlie what they thought of the idea and how possible it is earlier.
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Old 01-07-2008, 12:24 AM   #460
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C_O_jones View Post
One major point that hasn't come up yet:

How does the B/L Lipo class change over effect the hobby shop and most of all the hobby shop race track combo?

Hobby shops, especially with race tracks need sales to existing racers not just new people.
So we all go BL and lipo, a BL will last what, a year or two and pretty much the same for lipo's. So the shop will sell a, as in one BL speedo, one BL motor, maybe two, one maybe two lipo's for a two year period per racer.
Now you don't need to buy a com lathe, com sticks, springs, brushes, motor master, motor spray, and at least a spare motor, maybe twice a year for motors, and you won't need a discharger anymore either, right?
That is a good portion of the shops income gone, what is going to replace the lost income? These race tracks aren't swimming in money and a lot are closing down.
Where ya gunna race?

Dawn should be able the chime in on this from first hand experience.

Just another aspect of BL/lipo to consider.
Good news, higher entry fees solve that.

Where ya gonna race? Gymnasiums, basements, parks, parking lots, large old buildings. Anywhere you want. If you have enough guys, you can do about anything. if you have 30 entrys at $10 each, you're pulling in $1200 a month. You'd be amazed at what you can find in most towns for $1200 a month.

We can rent a massive, super smooth gymnasium, locally for $75 a day... local church, full line of vending machines, bathrooms, fast food is 2 blocks away.

For a period of about 2 years we club raced in the basement of an old folks home. FOR FREE. I put that deal together. We even had elevators. What keeps old people happy? Seeing family and grandkids. Why don't most small children want to spend time at old folks homes? Well, it can be kinda creepy for small kids. We offered to supply a service where familys and guests and small children could come down and watch what we were doing and enjoy the racing. This kept the residents happier as visits were generally longer, and everybody was happier. We got to be there as long as we wanted, all day every Sunday. They even had a few pool tables. Was a sweet room too.

Worked out for everybody. Just gotta think it through.

Sorry for the thread hi-jack.
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Old 01-07-2008, 12:30 AM   #461
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For a period of about 2 years we club raced in the basement of an old folks home. FOR FREE. I put that deal together.
Yeah, but not all of us are "lucky" enough to be residents of an old folks home and get that free deal.

Sorry Bob, I don't know you well enough to be giving you that kind of grief but couldn't resist...

Anyhow, like I said, I respect your opinion quite a bit and am curious as to what you think of the scenario with ESCs that I laid out above.
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Old 01-07-2008, 12:31 AM   #462
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I believe there are technical limitations to limiting current in an ESC. Something about running at 75% producing more heat (and wear on the components) than running at 100%, since the FETs have to burn off the extra juice. That's probably not exactly right, but my feeble memory recalls something along those lines. It's been suggested before, though. One of Novak's early BL ESC's had that option, but it was dropped.
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Old 01-07-2008, 12:42 AM   #463
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I believe there are technical limitations to limiting current in an ESC. Something about running at 75% producing more heat (and wear on the components) than running at 100%, since the FETs have to burn off the extra juice. That's probably not exactly right, but my feeble memory recalls something along those lines. It's been suggested before, though. One of Novak's early BL ESC's had that option, but it was dropped.

Hopefully that's not the case. I PM'ed someone at Novak in hopes that they will chime in.
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Old 01-07-2008, 12:43 AM   #464
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Perhaps it is worth limiting the scope of this discussion to the ROAR regional and National level race classes. It assumes a bit much that a national "beginners" class can or should be sanctioned. I consider my home track, Seattle Indoor Raceway, to be blessed with a longstanding silver can tradition that makes an ideal starting point for new racers, as well as a fun and competitive class for the experienced racers to periodically revisit. It's perfect...for our track. But this is a big country, and while my 90' by 50' slice of heavenly indoor asphalt (the current carpet is a sorrowful digression) is perfect for silver cans and 13.5's, other tracks are different. There are tracks with 170', even 200' straights! I could rubber band my throttle trigger, go to the bathroom, grab a Coke, and blow my nose in the time it would take a silver can car to go that far. And still others are laying out 40' by 40' squares of ozite and ripping it up with 12th scales--it's best for that venue. So while some are cheering for 17.5's, and others are groaning that 13.5's are too slow, maybe both are absolutely right.

I think we need two ROAR sedan classes. One for the best, most skilled drivers, who are probably sponsored, but whatever, with the fewest possible restrictions required to define a class: scale, tires, weight. The basic parameters common to virtually all motorsports.

The second class is for ambitious, self-sponsored sportsmen who are eager to throw down on a bigger stage once or twice a year and want to race at a high level with a realistic shot at some success. For these guys, logging local track time will be the key to that success. At the same time, don't dilute the experience at the big race. Finishing 36th in a field of 90 is awesome. 9th in a field of 18 considerably less so. So, one class for the sportsmen, the fast class at most of our tracks: 10.5/19t, lipos allowed. Buy your own chassis, motor, and battery.

Let the "lower" classes sort themselves out per the local venue. There are traditions to be respected, limits to be considered, all kinds of variables specific to a place that ROAR doesn't need to concern itself with.
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Old 01-07-2008, 12:47 AM   #465
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Yeah, but not all of us are "lucky" enough to be residents of an old folks home and get that free deal.

Sorry Bob, I don't know you well enough to be giving you that kind of grief but couldn't resist...

Anyhow, like I said, I respect your opinion quite a bit and am curious as to what you think of the scenario with ESCs that I laid out above.
Wait a tick... are you suggesting that I was a resident? I don't remember anymore...I might have been... you know, on several occasions, a few of them would bake cookies for us, as kind of an extended family. I kind of miss it a bit now that I'm talking about it. How cool to brighten somebodys day.

The idea of limiting devices surfaces all the time. As I recall a stand alone box ended up quite big to carry on the car, and to put something in a speedo seems reasonable. I dabble with turning down my high speed EPA all the time. And they take it. Although I think there is a limit there.

We can't effectively make a decision on existing technology. "pick any 3 of these motors...".

I can't help but think that the companys that make esc's would never agree on a technology. Especially when what it really would come down to is them spending a LOT of money, and I mean A LOT OF MONEY. to cooperatively develop a product that is intended to make us slower against our wishes, but possibly our own benefit. So that they can then try and advertise who did the better job of it and take market share from the other guy. The industry just isn't that big I'm afraid.

Tekin has been working on the R1 for quite a while. I'm finally going to play with one this week (I try to use everybodys gear, don't like to play favorites). I don't know that I'd want to be the ones to tell them, "cool, looks good, glad you got it out. So... uh...yea, interested in starting over again, right now"? We don't know what we want, can't agree on the limits or the technology, but if you could get crack-a-lackin' on that, that would be great.

Now that I think about it. Likely it would become the new catch phrase for people that like to say things like "Stock motor of the week", or "battery of the week". It would become speedo of the week as the technology were improved.

Be nifty if they could, but I can't imagine a workable scenario.

Almost be easier to set a club "rollout" rule. If everybody wants to see something work in a club, it's a self policing rule. you check the rollout of the top 3 cars after the main event, and it had better fit in the parameter established.
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