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Old 01-06-2008, 09:02 PM   #436
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17.5 tc - 6 minutes
13.5 tc - 6 minutes
open mod tc - 6 minutes (maybe a motor limit??)

17.5 12th - 8 minutes
13.5 12th - 8 minutes
open mod 12th - 8 minutes (maybe a motor limit??)
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Old 01-06-2008, 09:08 PM   #437
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17.5 tc - 6 minutes
13.5 tc - 6 minutes
open mod tc - 6 minutes (maybe a motor limit??)

17.5 12th - 8 minutes
13.5 12th - 8 minutes
open mod 12th - 8 minutes (maybe a motor limit??)
I like the class break downs, and now with brushless motors, the extended race time isn't as big of a maintenance deal anymore for the heavier tc's...
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Old 01-06-2008, 09:15 PM   #438
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17.5 tc - 6 minutes
13.5 tc - 6 minutes
open mod tc - 6 minutes (maybe a motor limit??)

17.5 12th - 8 minutes
13.5 12th - 8 minutes
open mod 12th - 8 minutes (maybe a motor limit??)
At one of our local tracks here, we've been doing this with 10.5 for awhile now w/o any hiccups. Another local track actually started running 8min in 13.5 and it's great!!
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Old 01-06-2008, 09:18 PM   #439
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I like the class break downs, and now with brushless motors, the extended race time isn't as big of a maintenance deal anymore for the heavier tc's...
Note that many event will have to cut how many entries than can take in order to accomodate longer races.

For example the Reedy race is 200 Open entries. If all classes go to 8 min for example than means there is only enough time in the day to run races for 125 entries.

...and the expenses to put on a race are the same no matter how many entries so the fee will go from ~$85 per class to ~$140 per class.

Longer races sound great for club races but will be a mess for big events.

Also...how many of you have marshalled a 15 min nitro main at a club race....it sucks standing out there for 15 min when you need to fix a broken car, prep tires, charge batteries.

Longer races are not all they are cracked up to be.
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Old 01-06-2008, 09:21 PM   #440
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The battery thing just isn't going to work. People need to be able to go into a hobby shop and purchase batteries to start racing with.
And there you have it. And really, who wants to buy all new stuff, and then scrounge up an old pack. That's why it's a good idea in theory. Turns out, lousy in the real world.

That's why ya gotta talk this stuff out. You just can't think of everything... well, my wife can... but that's a different issue...
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Old 01-06-2008, 09:30 PM   #441
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Lets not forget one thing, people want to get the RC cars we race because they're "fast". Slow the entry level class down too much and we'll have fewer people getting into RC than we do now.

After watching the Novak race all day today taught me a few things. People new to the hobby aren't having nearly as many problems with the speed as they are setting up a car that handles well. There were cars in sportsman that would have been difficult to drive for anyone no matter what speed they were going. I still don't think 13.5 is all that unreasonable speed wise, but the 17.5 they were running in sportsman seemed fine. However, slow things down more than that and I don't think there will be enough interest in the long run to keep a "stock" class thriving on the local level.
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Old 01-06-2008, 09:36 PM   #442
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ROAR, I don't think 19t should be eliminated. Comparing 19t laptimes to mod is not the same. Also, I don't think there should be 4 different "motor-based" classes at a ROAR race. 3 is plenty.

After watching the 6 cell open mod sedans in Cleveland, it's pretty easy to say that these were probably the hardest accelerating 100ft on-road vehicles I've ever seen (even moreso than 1/8th fuel). When observed like this, there is an obvious difference between 19t and open mod, as 19t has nowhere near that acceleration.

If ROAR continues to allow open mod/BL with 6 cells, then additional measures should be considered for spectator safety, as a 3 foot high catch fence is probably not high enough to catch a sedan being launched off the inside of the sweeper at 45+mph full-tilt boogie.

From the standpoint of ROAR, I would hope you consider what IFMAR may, or may not, be doing. If rules are being overhauled, now would be a good time to at least consider it. Not saying you need to follow, but at least consider.



Want to slow the open mod sedans down? Go to 5 cells (sorry lipo fans).

Leave 19t/10.5 as the intermediate class. No lipo in 2008.

Stock/13.5/17.5 is the tough one, but allow lipo here.

Also, don't regulate when a "racer" wants to buy new packs, or not. Especially considering the longevity of some of the more recent cells.

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Old 01-06-2008, 09:40 PM   #443
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N

Also...how many of you have marshalled a 15 min nitro main at a club race....it sucks standing out there for 15 min when you need to fix a broken car, prep tires, charge batteries.

Longer races are not all they are cracked up to be.
Oh man, I'll argue with you for a long time on this one. If a person wants to increase the value of the hobby to new people, fringe people and people that are in, thinking they should get out, you need to be able to show some "bang for the buck".

Let's see, what would I rather have, an hour of track time on race day, or 8 minutes. No brainer.

I didn't make the first few 45 minute mains I had a chance to. And man, when I did... IT WAS FREAKING AWESOME! It's real racing. And I'm lucky enough to weasel my way into a few long mains every year. You actually have time to screw up a few small things. You have to plan, calculate stuff like tire wear, receiver pack times, everything.

And when you come off the track, your tires are freaking bald, pieces of the car are bent, the pipe is full of dents, the anodizing burned off the head and the header, the car is a disaster and looks "used up"... I love a long event for nitro.

We can have this "finally" for electric (and it's a whole lot cleaner). I've been testing it for years. It's a blast, and all the guys in the related clubs I had test it were blown away. Hmm, 3 heats and a main at 8 minutes each, 32 minutes. OR, 3 fifteen minute heats and a 20 minute main, 65 minutes.

The hardest part I see at club races is getting dudes on the stand in a timely manner. 2 minutes between heats becomes 10 minutes almost every time... Once you got marshals and a stand full of drivers, time flies.

You're just using your time more effectively. And getting a better value.

If races have to be cutoff at 150-200 entrys, FINALLY, you have a good thing. Guess what? It's prestigious, even for the a newer guy. Not everybody gets to go. I'd gladly pay an extra $50 if it doubles my track time. Especially if I'm already out $2000 for airfare and hotel... not to mention a week off work.

You know as well as I do, the best bench racing storys most of us have, have come from long heats and mains. Where some crazy thing happened, and you had to make the best of it, and 5 guys flamed at 30 minutes and sure, they had you covered by 2 seconds a lap, most of them took 3-4 laps to get it going again, now you're 3 laps up, but your tires are about shot, and you can feel your servo getting slower, and the body has been dragging on the tire for about 10 minutes now and actually melted a hole in the body. Front camber link is loose now and kinda flopping... you stoppin??? NO WAY... its only cost you about a second a lap, and you're in third. 10 minutes to go, and you're car is rattling apart, the last time your pit guy yelled up something that sound like "you're at 370 degrees..." you stoppin??? NO WAY...

Everybody's yelling stuff to everybody, you can't hear a thing, your eyes are watering because you haven't blinked more than about 4 times in the last 38 minutes and you're kind of staring at the sun. You're pit guy is taking WAY to long to get gas in the car, and you yell down that you don't care if only half of the entire fuel bottle actually gets in the tank and the rest blows all over the chassis... JUST HURRY UP.. Oh crap... my brakes wet... not a big, only 4 minutes left... ;o)

I love that stuff.
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Old 01-06-2008, 09:47 PM   #444
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Lets not forget one thing, people want to get the RC cars we race because they're "fast". Slow the entry level class down too much and we'll have fewer people getting into RC than we do now.
What we forget though is that those slower cars, for us, are insane fast for the new guys, and they are in a heat of like speeded cars... (speeded, I made a new word...again...) Those guys could just as well be going 10 mph and they'd still be shaking, sweating, and every nerve fried... As long as the cars are similar in speed (or speeded), doesn't matter the speed.

The new guys I talk to, and observe are barely hanging on to the technology, intimidated as all get out, have poorly setup cars and miserable wiring, and they don't know any better, until we help them. 15 foot circle to the right, spinning out to the left... Their tired of having a crappy looking beat up car that THEY JUST PAINTED, and holes and hunks out of the tires they just bought. Cars are bent, tweaked, sometimes the shocks go up and down, sometimes they don't.

And when you're a noob, you're extra excited and want to show off your car, and it always looks bad to whoever you're showing it to. "what's all this black crap on the front, and tape, and cracks... you paint this with a magic marker?..."

I've done some silver can racing against good drivers.. the result was excellent racing.. The speed was of no concern, the racing was excellent.

By the time people get it figured out, the rest are calling them "sandbaggers". You kind of can't win... ...lol..
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Old 01-06-2008, 09:58 PM   #445
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Oh man, I'll argue with you for a long time on this one. If a person wants to increase the value of the hobby to new people, fringe people and people that are in, thinking they should get out, you need to be able to show some "bang for the buck".

Let's see, what would I rather have, an hour of track time on race day, or 8 minutes. No brainer.

I didn't make the first few 45 minute mains I had a chance to. And man, when I did... IT WAS FREAKING AWESOME! It's real racing. You actually have time to screw up a few small things. You have to plan, calculate stuff like tire wear, receiver pack times, everything.

And when you come off the track, your tires are freaking bald, pieces of the car are bent, the pipe is full of dents, the anodizing burned off the head and the header, the car is a disaster and looks "used up"... I love a long event for nitro.

We can have this "finally" for electric. I've been testing it for years. It's a blast, and all the guys in the related clubs I had test it were blown away. Hmm, 3 heats and a main at 8 minutes each, 32 minutes. OR, 3 fifteen minute heats and a 20 minute main, 65 minutes.

The hardest part I see at club races is getting dudes on the stand in a timely manner. 2 minutes between heats becomes 10 minutes almost every time... Once you got marshals and a stand full of drivers, time flies.

You're just using your time more effectively. And getting a better value.

If races have to be cutoff at 150-200 entrys, FINALLY, you have a good thing. Guess what? It's prestigious, even for the a newer guy. Not everybody gets to go. I'd gladly pay an extra $50 if it doubles my track time. Especially if I'm already out $2000 for airfare and hotel... not to mention a week off work.

You know as well as I do, the best bench racing storys most of us have, have come from long heats and mains. Where some crazy thing happened, and you had to make the best of it, and 5 guys flamed at 30 minutes and sure, they had you covered by 2 seconds a lap, most of them took 3-4 laps to get it going again, now you're 3 laps up, but your tires are about shot, and you can feel your servo getting slower, and the body has been dragging on the tire for about 10 minutes now and actually melted a hole in the body. Front camber link is loose now and kinda flopping... you stoppin??? NO WAY... its only cost you about a second a lap, and you're in third. 10 minutes to go, and you're car is rattling apart, the last time your pit guy yelled up something that sound like "you're at 370 degrees..." you stoppin??? NO WAY...

I love that stuff.
I agree, longer races would be good, but it has to remain in reason, perhaps 8 min. Many people race on a weeknight or a weekend day where they'd like to get off the track in time to get dinner and go out and have some fun.

Does anyone else feel another story coming on?

Tues. nights are the night I have raced in the past and will be racing in the future. Racing starts at 7:00 and I usually try to get there around 6:00 to get set up and hopefully get a practice run in. Even with starting at 7:00, a lot of people, including myself, are hustling to get to the track after work. Lets say on a given night there are 6 heats and 4 x 10 min races for each person including qualifying and main, and there is an extra 2 min. between races (which we all know things rarely work out that way. So that's about the best case secenario, yet there's still no way I'm leaving the track much before midnight. That's probably enough to discourage a lot of people from racing simply based on time constraints, and you're certainly not going to find many kids racing. Racing on weekends would make things easier however, at least around here, the weeknight race has more entries than the weekend race.


Ike

P.S. I hope you don't think I'm picking on your ideas Bob, I've had a lot of respect for you for many years.
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Old 01-06-2008, 10:00 PM   #446
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everyones perception of what is too fast seems to be a lot different in relation to the size of the track they run on.

I suggest just calling the classes by alpha order with class A being the fastest.

Class C can consist of 17.5-13.5
Class B can consist of 13.5-10.5
Class A can consist open with maybe a 5.5 limit on some tracks....

for example the race director can decide on what motor to run on each class that is practical for the size of thier track.....

I also love the Idea of longer races, the reason I do run nitro more is because I atleast get 30 min. of wheel time for a race day.....

Just an idea, so don't start flaming.....
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Old 01-06-2008, 10:00 PM   #447
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Bob I agree with you 110% on the longer races.

I loved the 15 to 20 minute finals that are completed on nitro club days.

I have also competed in several events with 30 minute and 45 minute finals, although I couldn't keep the concentration up for the entire 45 minutes but I could for 30 and you feel awesome at the end of a good 30 minute race.

Releaved it was over yet you can wait until the next event so you can do it again to improve for the next one .

I also find it allows you to learn more about your car, and how to improve the setup and driving style.

You are correct with most of the time wasted between racers the long track time makes for a much more efficient race event.

My biggest gripe with electric TC racing is the short racers, 4 and 5 minutes is just not long enough!!!

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Old 01-06-2008, 10:01 PM   #448
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Those guys could just as well be going 10 mph and they'd still be shaking, sweating, and every nerve fried... As long as the cars are similar in speed (or speeded), doesn't matter the speed.
What do you mean "those guys", I still forget to blink sometimes
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Old 01-06-2008, 10:28 PM   #449
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P.S. I hope you don't think I'm picking on your ideas Bob, I've had a lot of respect for you for many years.
Not in the least, In your situation, my idea is flawed and absolutely not going to work.

Would be a lot of people in a similar predicament. Hmmm... what to do, what to do. There really is no right or wrong way to do all this. It's impossible to make everybody happy. But it would be nice to make most of the people happy.

Sooner or later in this ROAR brushless thread, it is likely some thoughts will come forward that will have the best case scenario covered for the majority. We just need to keep putting our heads together until finally somebody says something so brilliant and insightful, that the rest of us go, "... Man, that's exactly what should happen... where you been hiding that great idea?..."

Really, at this point, to absolutely nail it down and simplify it, we are talking about a motor for 3 classes and 3 skill levels Low to high.
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Old 01-06-2008, 11:00 PM   #450
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Well I'll throw my .02 in. I've been racing for 20+ years. In the past year I've raced TC, 12th, 2wd Buggy, 4wd buggy, 2wd truck and Sliders. Over the years I've raced just about every class out there. In my experience with brushless(which goes back pretty early) and reading the previous posts here I have found some simple points for consideration:

1. Brushed and Brushless motors have different power bands and thus cannot be compared in an apples for apples method. In oval a 17.5 is clearly faster than a 27t. On a roadcourse it is clearly slower. A 13.5 offroad is close to a 19t and in a TC onroad is even with a 27t.

2. Motor rules and class rules are inseparable.

3. When we discuss motors you must consider batteries in the same breath, therefore in my opinion it can't be stressed enough that this motor debate needs to be framed more as a power debate.

4. "Stock" class has always been intended to provide a "low" cost and "easier" way for new racers to learn about racing and hopefully become racers. Modified has always been intended to showcase the limit of what we and our "little toy cars" are capable of. 19 turn was introduced as a "bridge" class between the two.

Given these precepts it seems to me that we should encourage anything and everything that limits cost and effort to race in stock class, allow for open development in Modified with a minimum of regulation, and find some happy medium between the two in the "Bridge" class.

In order to minimize cost and effort I think the jury is clearly "in" that brushless is better in terms of cost and maintenance than brushed. Therefore the question of brushed vs. brushless in stock is a red herring. If brushless is faster, great! The last thing we want is new guys coming into the hobby feeling like they need to buy three motors, springs, brushes, a lathe, a dyno, etc. just to be successful in the "Beginners" class. Let them spend a fraction of that for one reliable motor that is just as fast if not faster than everyone else. For those brushed guys already in the hobby brushless is just another motor you would have bought next year anyway.

This does still leave the question of speed however, as well as the other big cost for racing, batteries. Clearly it is advantageous to slow new racers down, but the slower you go the more apparent differences in speed becomes. Therefore it's crucial that new racers are aware that the reason they are not as fast as others in their class is that they can't drive or setup their car, not because their equipment is inferior. The single greatest cause of new racer retirement is a belief that others are cheating or using an unlimited budget to race with. The best antidote to this is making the class as close to spec as possible while leaving room for the individual to excel by his/her own efforts. So it would seem a type of low power spec battery would be a good idea.

As I understand battery matching a matcher will get several thousand cells and 60% will be stickpack quality, 30% race, 9% team and 1% exceptional or thereabouts. This obviously leaves the matcher with a lot of cells that no one really wants thus having to make a lot more on the cells people do want. But if we were able to apply certain industrywide specs to the matching process then the lower cells could be a known quantity and could be teched in the same way motors are. No longer could you run a hot pack on a stock class. This would create a use for a large percentage of the cells out there while providing a cheap, low power, consistent standard for "stock" racing.

Once we've figured out stock racing I think the other two are pretty straightforward.
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