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Old 01-06-2008, 10:30 AM   #421
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Old 01-06-2008, 10:40 AM   #422
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Each local track is going to have to figure out for themselves what works best for them. It simply isn't possible for ROAR to come up with something that will fit everyone. All ROAR can do is come up with a set of rules that comes as close to the middle as possible, and then enforce those rules beginning at the Regional level. Each track will probably have some racers who only want to race at the local level who aren't going to worry about the exact letter of ROAR. And there will be others who want to try and climb the ladder from local to regional to national and race using all the ROAR rules. The track has to figure out how to mix them together without putting anyone out.

No, it's not easy. No one ever said it would be.
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Old 01-06-2008, 01:33 PM   #423
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On larger tracks maybe...but on smaller tracks like ours (60' x 60') the track itself is the limiting factor so you can only go so fast. Often times that really isn't much faster then stock.

You are right. I should have left off the "in any scenario" and just said in the over all range of things.

frozen.. We know the gap between the bottom end of motors and the max you can put down on the track will shrink over time again. Some of us prefer to plan for the future and not for tomorrow so we aren't going over this next year.
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Old 01-06-2008, 03:33 PM   #424
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InspGadgt is right. I know Bob and he is a smart guy but I think he is a bit too in love with this even splitting of laps and lap time per class concept.

Stock is supposed to be the entry level class where racers learn to drive and setup their equipment at speeds that let them have the time to react and avoid crashes.

19T is supposed to be the next step up. You get quite a bit more speed and a little more punch than a stock motor so proper driving, throttle control and car setups are more critical. Here is the big deal about 19T and 10.5. Sure the lap time are close to Mod but these motors are WAY EASIER to drive than a full blow open mod motor.

Mod is the ultimate level for guys that really want to be the best drivers. You have more power than you could possibly use and throttle driving and car setups are critical. You can only drive full throttle in a couple places on the track per lap.

Even though 19/10.5 can generate very close lap time to Open Mod there is an enormous difference in feel. A really good 19T driver can't just step up to Mod and be really fast. The gap in power and skill necessary to be fast is really big.

This is why I think 13.5 would be a very poor choice to be the next spec mod class. Like I said before...forget lap times. Its all about the feel of driving these motors. 13.5 is too close to 17.5 in feel and speed to do any good for up and coming drivers. The jump to open mod would be even more shocking.

Of the currently available motors only the 10.5 is close enough to Mod feel to be a good midpoint between 17.5 and open mod.
Just all theory's and good friendly debate. The thread is a debate on brushless and the ROAR rules and how can we make sure that through it's use that we have fair and equatable racing.

Firstly, stock is a motor designation, not a skill level. I think we've had that wrong for years. And it's been to fast for about about the last 10-15 years. And you see this when you watch a new guy beat the holy crap out of a car on his first few weeks at the track. You can usually spot the newest guy at that track, his body is the most beat, cracked, and taped, and that's just the second weekend.

19 turn shouldn't really be anything specific, and surely not the next level over stock. 19 turn is hard to drive fast for probably 80% of the drivers that are in the class. And the way to prove that is by watching how few stock drivers can go substantially faster in 19 turn, if at all.

Mod is what it is. Strap it in and hang on. And most of us are.

For the record, I'm not particularly in love with any concept. My thoughts are pretty straight forward, and largely accurate in a few of the most basic areas.

We have BL mod and we have the slowest generally accepted race motor (27 turn brushed) and we have what is in between. And some random silver can racing (which frankly I've done, and like a lot in both 1/12th and touring).

What ROAR should be trying to do, and within our realm of present technology, would be to build legitimate stepping stone classes. If done correctly, the classes get faster and even involve more technology. If done correctly, a guy in the fastest class, could sell his batteries off to the noobs a few classes back, and they'd save a buck (still be competitive), and the hardcore fast guy would have a new pack again if that was what he desired.

Sadly for Stormer Hobbies, I think a lot of my ideas for good rules revolve around concepts that don't stimulate sales for us. This is counterproductive, but I feel the long term health of the hobby is a better goal. I have a crazy idea where only mod and pro drivers would use the most high end packs available, and everybody else would use the cells say 6 months back (or whatever it was). For example, this season, 4500-4600's for the mod guys, everybody else is in the 4200's. Mod and pro guys move on dump their 42's into the market place. The 42 guys can still buy new stuff but also there are good used pro packs floating around for the budget dudes, and the 42's are still available for purchase new.

The season before was 38's and 42's. And on it would go. The whole thing is full of holes, but the idea behind it is sound. It also, and absolutely stops the griping of the new guys worried about the "Battery of the week" nonsense that they feel is the real reason they are 2 seconds a lap off in stock, and we all now the real reason, but nobody likes to admit that.

Lipo aside, cell advancement aside, availability aside. Just wrap around this scenario for 3 classes. It would change the next season.

And because this is the Brushless thread, I've configured it around that scenario. I have thoughts for brushed as well. And for the love of PETE, don't call a class by the name of the motor. Give the class a name like GT1 or something. That way when it's time to update the motor or cells or whatever the class name stays the same, and a few of the particulars change. Just like people that are married to the class, "STOCK". which is not a class, but a motor.

I also don't feel people want to be lumped into classes like, "Rookie and noob", come up with better names. It's cool to be a "Sportsman", not cool to be a "noob".

Class3, BL Mod, newest cells available 4500-4600's
Class2, BL13.5, 4200's
Class1, BL17.5 or 21.5, 3800's

Now before you just up and hate it. Wrap around the concept of the speed level of the cars and cost to play in the classes based on tire wear, and the price of cells.

You could race a higher class and start somebody in your family at a reasonable speed, and they could use your old cells. You get new stuff, and don't feel like you've handicapped the new guys, because you haven't. Nor is it necessary to buy them all the new stuff, even if only outta guilt.

Just something to debate. Doesn't mean it's right or wrong.
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Old 01-06-2008, 03:44 PM   #425
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Bob, nice layout on how it could work.
What would you do with brushed motors in the starting class and mid class. The top class is taken care of.
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Old 01-06-2008, 04:04 PM   #426
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Bob, nice layout on how it could work.
What would you do with brushed motors in the starting class and mid class. The top class is taken care of.
I've noticed that because I type relatively quickly, most posts get so long, most people don't read to the bottom of them. Heck, I don't read to the bottom of them. So I'll just cut to the chase, without much explanation.

Brushed class thoughts: 19 is just to fast for an intermediate class. As are 27 turn stocks.

This likely ends up being 1/12th 4-cell, we'd have to spend more time on touring.

Class3, Handled. as mentioned above. but 8 minutes
Class2, replace 19 with something like 21, 4200's, 12 minutes
Class1, Hand wound 28-32 turn motors. 3800's, 16 minutes

These would likely be 1/12th scale 4-cell classes only. As I've tested a lot with the above scenarios in 1/12th, but NOT in touring. I suspect the heat of the overgeared 32's would be a bit tough. They end up at 24 degrees of timing, being about 32-35 watt motors. Very useable and fun racing. And excellent run time.

Look at the main advantage for the rookies. Cheaper racing, and double the track time. that's EXACTLY what the rookies need, more track time. and the motors allow for it on lesser cells.

I've got many hand wound motors that we had made that are in the 25-35 turn range that we tested for 1/12th. I've got one of the 30's that has over 6 hours on it, same brushes, dynos similarly to when it was fresh. Tell me that's not a positive thing. We started testing those over 2 years ago.

You can get away with what I'll call, faster than or equal to "stock motor" speeds with a 28 turn handwound mod, on 38's for 16 minutes. You can do 20 minutes on 42's, but at about the same as stock. But it's pushing it. A good driver can almost watch his lap times and plot them over the discharge curve of the pack.

I haven't done any endurance testing yet with 4600's. But I suspect we'd have good brushed motor racing at faster than stock speeds for 20 minutes with no run time issues, unless you've abused your packs and now they're 38's. Then you're gonna struggle.
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Old 01-06-2008, 04:56 PM   #427
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Firstly, stock is a motor designation, not a skill level. I think we've had that wrong for years. And it's been to fast for about about the last 10-15 years. And you see this when you watch a new guy beat the holy crap out of a car on his first few weeks at the track. You can usually spot the newest guy at that track, his body is the most beat, cracked, and taped, and that's just the second weekend.
This is an important distinction, because when you start thinking of the class in terms of a motor designation and not skill level that allows for people of all skill levels to participate and continue to participate in a class they enjoy and are not forced to "move up".

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[Sadly for Stormer Hobbies, I think a lot of my ideas for good rules revolve around concepts that don't stimulate sales for us. This is counterproductive, but I feel the long term health of the hobby is a better goal. I have a crazy idea where only mod and pro drivers would use the most high end packs available, and everybody else would use the cells say 6 months back (or whatever it was). For example, this season, 4500-4600's for the mod guys, everybody else is in the 4200's. Mod and pro guys move on dump their 42's into the market place. The 42 guys can still buy new stuff but also there are good used pro packs floating around for the budget dudes, and the 42's are still available for purchase new.
NORRCA did something similar but that division was between sportsman and expert not between classes. One hole I see right away in a battery division by class is when someone decides to change classes their batteries are essentially obsolete instantly, which would probably cause some people to decide not to change or to wait to change until their next battery purchase anyway.

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[And because this is the Brushless thread, I've configured it around that scenario. I have thoughts for brushed as well. And for the love of PETE, don't call a class by the name of the motor. Give the class a name like GT1 or something. That way when it's time to update the motor or cells or whatever the class name stays the same, and a few of the particulars change. Just like people that are married to the class, "STOCK". which is not a class, but a motor.
As I understand it that is how the TCS classes are named. I agree the names should not be tied to the motor.

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[You could race a higher class and start somebody in your family at a reasonable speed, and they could use your old cells. You get new stuff, and don't feel like you've handicapped the new guys, because you haven't. Nor is it necessary to buy them all the new stuff, even if only outta guilt.
I like the idea of this...not sure how it would play out in practice.
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Old 01-06-2008, 07:10 PM   #428
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Bob- Excellent ideas...ROAR LET'S IMPLEMENT THESE NOW PLEASE, along with Josh CYRUL'S MOTOR CLASSIFICATION STRATEGY OF: 21.5-GT1, 17.5-GT2 and 10.5-GT3 (my only addendum would be a 7.5 for a final GT4 class instead of 5.5)!!!

Anyone could run whatever class they choose and brushed motor equivalents could be raced in them. Maybe batteries should be given a two year life span by IFMAR/ROAR/EFRA/JMAR(?) etc. so that cost are lowered and stability enhanced.

This would also allow longer periods for increases in battery technology before class speeds would need to be overhauled via motor classifications or other technology limitations/modifications.

One interesting aspect of slowing things down is that it may also allow for smaller tracks which could equate to less cost and thus more tracks (or tracks staying in business longer). This too would be advantageous for the future of RC and may even allow our fellow Asian racers to open a few more CARPET tracks due to the high cost of real estate over there...hey wait a minute, America's real estate cost are quite the pretty penny also!!!

What do you think Dawn????

Insptgadget- Excellent observations also. The one hole you pointed out is partially mitigated by the changing battery technology. Even so, with the "new battery of the year" cycle the only way a person gets caught out is if they want to race a different class during the season. Even with this change the different battery classes would only come into play on a regional or national level, thus a person could have some packs for a different class such as GT3 to run at their local track but only use their "main class" packs (say GT2) for big races.
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Old 01-06-2008, 07:21 PM   #429
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The idea of slowing down the entry level classes sounds like a great plan. My concern lies in that when someone wants to move up to the next class, say from the 21.5 to the 17.5 class, there is a given increase in speed. If the next step is the 10.5 class, might that be a big jump, from basically a brushed 27t speed to speeds that are very similar to open mod speeds as we saw this past weekend in Milwaukee. Could a better jump be to 13.5, which is a bit slower than full open mod, but not a huge jump from the 17.5, which would give an even 4 turns between each of the classes as well.
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Old 01-06-2008, 07:57 PM   #430
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The only potential problem I see with Cyruls Idea is that stopping with 10.5 is just not fast enough, and 21.5 and 17.5 are to close together. And to add a class faster than 10.5 and keep 10.5 at the same time now means 4 classes, instead of 3. That's to many. and the gap 17.5-10.5 is to wide. one of those motors is the wrong one to use to keep a good mix of 3 classes.

Also, for a final thought before makes any decisions, is they should go to the table with ALL the key players and ask them if this is do-able. Can the manufacturing that is going on now, do this "thing".

Rolling out a 17.5 and 21.5 is hard for sensorless speedos to deal with. Not impossible, just harder. We don't want to develop a class that include the mythical "flux capacitor" if you can't get one.

Putting life spans on cells, or completely curtailing the use of the new stuff is not entirely in our best interest. It indirectly encourages "funny business", and we are the low man on the totem pole when it comes to what we can demand from the major cell manufacturers. Electric power tool industry, 99% of the cells in the world and they are happy if the pack simply "works". RC industry 1% of the cells, and they gripe about every little thing. Adrian would likely know more about that. Those numbers I had are examples, not quotes.

Any racer should be able to buy say 2-3 packs every 6 months, use them for 6 months and still have a value of about 1/2 what they paid. That's actually a very reasonable value. Buy a gallon of gas, drive for 15 miles, you don't get to keep the gas. I sell off used personal packs all the time. I'm sure the majority of us do. Who usually gets them? New guys or guys looking for bargain practice packs. And from my personal experiences my used packs are nearly ALWAYS better than what most entry level club guys are using. Guy gets a sweet pack, and I get $10-$20 for lunch. Works fine.

I don't know that the turn of a motor gives a direct linear correlation to lap times. I feel the curve is pretty exponential. As an example look how close 19 turn races are to the fastest of the fast mod motors. In the hands of the average racer, they will turn faster lap times with the 19 than with the full on mods. There is a line there. You can start with the slowest motor you can put in a car, and progress on. Eventually the average racer will find a spot where they make more mistakes, hit more stuff and really on the ragged edge and their lap times are slower. And it's different for everybody. That's why it's an average.

Fast guys, like the top 10-20 mod racers in the country can turn faster lap times with the next faster motor, every single time you hand them a motor. They can hang onto it and milk it for all it's worth. Putting the car an inch off the line with 27turn brushed, or a 2.5 brushless at triple the straightaway speed...still an inch off the line.

You really can't write rules for the masses based on what guys like Toso', Burch, Cyrul, Cuffs, Smyka, Dumas and the others that are in their league. I have something I developed called the "Stormer Error factor". That shows who's driving what and to what potential. I ran the numbers at Cleveland this year, Terry Rott drove his mod car faster and more accurately than his stock car... Not many people can do that world wide (good job Terry). And you can't write rules based around what the pro's can do. You can have them test it, but you can't write rules around those guys capabilities.

What the pro's can do, and should be doing as part of their deals with manufacturers is testing NOT JUST what it takes to make good cars, parts and technologies, but classes for the rest of us to use them effectively. Although I have a few problems with that too. Some of those guys are so good that while testing things they just don't hit enough stuff. Making cars that work VERY GOOD, but not as durable as could be for the joe average among us. That's a different thread though.
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Old 01-06-2008, 08:11 PM   #431
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You really can't write rules for the masses based on what guys like Toso', Burch, Cyrul, Cuffs, Smyka, Dumas and the others that are in their league. ... And you can't write rules based around what the pro's can do. You can have them test it, but you can't write rules around those guys capabilities.
I hope there's a little "TADA" sound chiming in many heads right now...
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Old 01-06-2008, 08:35 PM   #432
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Some of us prefer to plan for the future and not for tomorrow so we aren't going over this next year.
Sorry to burst that 'perfect' bubble of yours brah (nothing personal)but things are going to be 'TWEAKED' for what I feel the next couple of years. This is just the tip of the iceberg for ROAR. These decisions that are going to be made are just the framework of what we're going to see in the ROAR's rulebook 5-7 yrs from now. Quote me on that!
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Old 01-06-2008, 08:56 PM   #433
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Sorry to burst that 'perfect' bubble of yours brah (nothing personal)but things are going to be 'TWEAKED' for what I feel the next couple of years. This is just the tip of the iceberg for ROAR. These decisions that are going to be made are just the framework of what we're going to see in the ROAR's rulebook 5-7 yrs from now. Quote me on that!
I don't think anyone would argue with that. The meeting next week for roar maybe the most important meeting the R/C world has had in a very long time. I'm just glad we have some people that seem to have a good head on their shoulders going into this meeting..... No presssssure Dawn
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Old 01-06-2008, 09:00 PM   #434
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Class3, Handled. as mentioned above. but 8 minutes
Class2, replace 19 with something like 21, 4200's, 12 minutes
Class1, Hand wound 28-32 turn motors. 3800's, 16 minutes
The battery thing just isn't going to work. People need to be able to go into a hobby shop and purchase batteries to start racing with. Just a random example, I have a friend that's going to start racing a new class that Trackside is doing. At the time the class had a limit of 4200 mah cells. Well, 4200 weren't being matched any more when he needed to buy batteries, let alone 3800's. Sure, maybe he could have come on here and bought some older batteries, in who knows what condition and hoped that the seller is a good one. Honestly, used batteries are such an iffy thing that even with the best seller you're taking a risk.

So... on with the story. I started cycling (allowing plenty of cooldown time) some of my 3800 packs to get them rejuvenated and hopefully have some practice packs for the two of us. Well, two packs have had batteries vent and another one just isn't coming back so well. I could have easily sold off these packs as "like new with only a few racedays" and just let the person know that they'll need to be cycled a bit beacsue they've been siting. Had this been someone new to RC and trying to to get batteries for the 3800 class you're proposing and we both would have ended up disappointed and and we'd have a discouraged buyer that is simply trying to get started in RC and me as a seller that doesn't want to mess around with selling used batteries any more. For that very reason the only time I've ever sold battery packs is if I've recently raced with them and knew they were top quality or when I make it clear that the packs I'm selling are more for practice.

In short, I just don't think it's a good idea limit a class to cells that are no longer available.

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Old 01-06-2008, 09:01 PM   #435
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Bob, stock is not a motor designation. Stock is not a skill level. Stock is a word.

When first introduced, stock was meant to be the low skill level class. You started off in stock, ran it for a while, and when yo ufelt you were good enough, you stepped up to mod. If you never got good enough, or just didn't want to put in the work, you stayed in stock.

When the rebuildable stock motor was introduced, mod drivers found it much cheaper to run stock over mod. So they all moved into stock, pushing out many of the lower skill level racers. This is why the growth of electric racing has essentially been stagnant for the last 10 years or so. There have been some short growth spurts, but they don't last long and things shrink back to where they were.

The first thing we need to do is settle the argument as to wether stock is a low skill level class or not. By eliminating the word stock you render that argument moot. Next we decide on how many skill levels there should be. Looks like the best answer is 3. Then we decide on what the restrictions and specs are for each skill level, and that's where things will get a little sticky.

I think you should all note that the people most pushing for spec brushless classes are people who don't want to spend their time rebuilding their motors every run.
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