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Old 01-05-2008, 01:20 PM   #406
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Stop talking about 10.5/19T Lap times. Start talking about FEEL. 13.5 Feels SLOW. 10.5 feels fast and fun. I don't run stock because its slow and boring to me. I have tried 13.5 and its a little faster then stock but its still slow to me.

I could care less about how evenly spaced lap times are between classes. We race cars not statistical analyasis programs.
Then race mod!!!
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Old 01-05-2008, 01:57 PM   #407
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The NOVAK Race Results so far are proving that BRUSHLESS Power is just amazing.

So far this speed differences between 13.5, 10.5, and Mod are REDICUOUSLY close.

Mod top TQ = 5.00 (30-laps)
10.5 top TQ = 5.08 (30-laps) - less than .002 of a lap difference to modified
13.5 top TQ = 5.04 (29-laps)

A couple of the Top TQ drivers in 10.5 could take the bottom 2-3 spots in modified as it stands now, and the same goes for 13.5.

I think it is pretty clear we have a problem here. If these results stay this close through to the mains, I think the 13.5 should become the new 19T, not a 10.5. As for 27T, unfortunately it looks like they did not have enough to run a 17.5 class so we could see how much slower it is. I really would have liked to see the differences at a big race between a 17.5, 13.5, and 10.5.
Comparing laptimes and overall times on small carpet tracks is WORTHLESS, at the IIC an all brushed race on a small carpet track the split between classes was close. At Cleveland on a larger carpet track where mod could stretch its legs the split was larger. A 1 second split on a small track is a lot larger than a 1 second split on a large track.

On a small track mod barely gets up some speed before it is time to turn again, this minimizes speed advantages over 19t

We need to compare by SPEED not by laptimes or qualifying times.
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Old 01-05-2008, 02:37 PM   #408
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Old 01-05-2008, 02:43 PM   #409
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Originally Posted by kn7671 View Post
The NOVAK Race Results so far are proving that BRUSHLESS Power is just amazing.

So far this speed differences between 13.5, 10.5, and Mod are REDICUOUSLY close.

Mod top TQ = 5.00 (30-laps)
10.5 top TQ = 5.08 (30-laps) - less than .002 of a lap difference to modified
13.5 top TQ = 5.04 (29-laps)

.
I would like to clarify to the readers that the math completed as shown above isn't correct. You can't use the calculator to punch in 5.00 and divide by 30 laps, and then 5.08 divide by 30 laps and say there's a .002 lap difference (or 2 thousands of a second.) without changing the units first. That isn't the case at all. You need to convert units correctly first, as 5 is a minute unit, and 8 is a second unit. They both need to be converted to be equal to each other before doing any further calculations.

The correct calculations would be as follows.
Mod TQ = 5:00/30 laps = 10.000 seconds avg.
10.5 TQ = 5:08/30 laps = 10.267 seconds avg. (the difference is .267, or almost 2.7% slower per lap) *not .002, or 2 thousands of a sec per lap as shown above.
New Mod TQ = 5:05/31 laps = 09.838 seconds avg. (now the difference is .429, or 4.3% slower per lap.)
13.5 TQ = 5:04/29 laps = 10.482 seconds avg. (now the difference is .644, or 6.5% slower per lap etc.)

The calculations I completed clearly demonstrates modified is significantly faster than the rest of the 10.5, 13.5 classes below it. Also the percentage difference would show up more in lap time, if say the track was 20-25 seconds per lap and longer.

Thanks and let me know if any questions, and I'll be more than glad to clarify, -David.

Last edited by 4wd Racer; 01-05-2008 at 02:48 PM. Reason: grammar
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Old 01-05-2008, 03:46 PM   #410
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Then race mod!!!
I do race mod but when I just want to run with out having to concentrat so much on setups and driving I run 19T or 10.5. If that goes away then I have a choice between a motor that is too slow and one that is too fast.
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Old 01-05-2008, 06:45 PM   #411
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Old 01-05-2008, 09:47 PM   #412
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The sportsman class at Novak is running the 17.5 motor along w\ the Tamiya Mini's.
That's an interesting scenario. Wonder how you roll out a 17.5 in a mini?
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Old 01-05-2008, 09:59 PM   #413
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That's an interesting scenario. Wonder how you roll out a 17.5 in a mini?
The stock silver can motors turn from 10,000 to 13,000, so it shouldn't be too far off.
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Old 01-05-2008, 10:03 PM   #414
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Originally Posted by 4wd Racer View Post
I would like to clarify to the readers that the math completed as shown above isn't correct. You can't use the calculator to punch in 5.00 and divide by 30 laps, and then 5.08 divide by 30 laps and say there's a .002 lap difference (or 2 thousands of a second.) without changing the units first. That isn't the case at all. You need to convert units correctly first, as 5 is a minute unit, and 8 is a second unit. They both need to be converted to be equal to each other before doing any further calculations.

The correct calculations would be as follows.
Mod TQ = 5:00/30 laps = 10.000 seconds avg.
10.5 TQ = 5:08/30 laps = 10.267 seconds avg. (the difference is .267, or almost 2.7% slower per lap) *not .002, or 2 thousands of a sec per lap as shown above.
New Mod TQ = 5:05/31 laps = 09.838 seconds avg. (now the difference is .429, or 4.3% slower per lap.)
13.5 TQ = 5:04/29 laps = 10.482 seconds avg. (now the difference is .644, or 6.5% slower per lap etc.)

The calculations I completed clearly demonstrates modified is significantly faster than the rest of the 10.5, 13.5 classes below it. Also the percentage difference would show up more in lap time, if say the track was 20-25 seconds per lap and longer.

Thanks and let me know if any questions, and I'll be more than glad to clarify, -David.
Stock, or Whatever you want to call it needs to be about 40% slower than mod. (in any scenario)
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Old 01-05-2008, 11:37 PM   #415
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Why does stock have to be so slow, isn't this what novice classes are for, just rememeber power and lap times do not have a direct relationship.

From my 13 years of racing on club days in both Nitro and Electric on road and off road the fast stock guys are typically lapping as quick as the slow mod guys.

If you are reffering directly to the power of the motor, the power of a 13.5 from memory is approximately 34% of a 4.5 which is commonly used here in mod.
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Old 01-05-2008, 11:43 PM   #416
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As for 27T equivilant, restricting winds and comparing them is probably the best that can be done.

Therefor a 27T delta wound motor converted to star divide by (sqrt(3) approximately 1.73) approximately equals 15.5T.

15.5T brushless sure would be interesting to test.

Using the above math a 13.5T start approximately equals a 23T delta.

Last edited by frozenpod; 01-05-2008 at 11:46 PM. Reason: gramma
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Old 01-06-2008, 12:41 AM   #417
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If you are reffering directly to the power of the motor, the power of a 13.5 from memory is approximately 34% of a 4.5 which is commonly used here in mod.
In a post from Bob Stormer back a few week ago, there was talk about having more power than you can drive (this does apply to me). His point is that unless you were turning 10% more laps in 19 turn than stock your driving and or set up was off. Once again there should be a 10% increase from 19 turn to full Mod. If you did not meet these goals, you would be better off running less motor and maybe turning more laps.

I put this to a test two weeks ago. I ran at a small local track in the 19 turn class with a well tuned stock motor and finished 4th in the A. The next week, I put in a Tamiya 23 turn motor, that I put bearings in and tuned as well and then finished 2nd. So for me, having more power does not equate to more laps. Kind of like playing golf, sometimes you learn that hitting the 3 wood, will give you a better score than your driver.

So with that being said, fast drivers will always be fast. We just need to have a set of rules, that seem fair and reasonable. However, I also do not want 10 classes with 6 cars, I want 5 classes with 12 or 4 classes with 15.
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Old 01-06-2008, 01:37 AM   #418
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Stock, or Whatever you want to call it needs to be about 40% slower than mod. (in any scenario)
On larger tracks maybe...but on smaller tracks like ours (60' x 60') the track itself is the limiting factor so you can only go so fast. Often times that really isn't much faster then stock.
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Old 01-06-2008, 09:42 AM   #419
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In a post from Bob Stormer back a few week ago, there was talk about having more power than you can drive (this does apply to me). His point is that unless you were turning 10% more laps in 19 turn than stock your driving and or set up was off. Once again there should be a 10% increase from 19 turn to full Mod. If you did not meet these goals, you would be better off running less motor and maybe turning more laps.

I put this to a test two weeks ago. I ran at a small local track in the 19 turn class with a well tuned stock motor and finished 4th in the A. The next week, I put in a Tamiya 23 turn motor, that I put bearings in and tuned as well and then finished 2nd. So for me, having more power does not equate to more laps. Kind of like playing golf, sometimes you learn that hitting the 3 wood, will give you a better score than your driver.

So with that being said, fast drivers will always be fast. We just need to have a set of rules, that seem fair and reasonable. However, I also do not want 10 classes with 6 cars, I want 5 classes with 12 or 4 classes with 15.
InspGadgt is right. I know Bob and he is a smart guy but I think he is a bit too in love with this even splitting of laps and lap time per class concept.

Stock is supposed to be the entry level class where racers learn to drive and setup their equipment at speeds that let them have the time to react and avoid crashes.

19T is supposed to be the next step up. You get quite a bit more speed and a little more punch than a stock motor so proper driving, throttle control and car setups are more critical. Here is the big deal about 19T and 10.5. Sure the lap time are close to Mod but these motors are WAY EASIER to drive than a full blow open mod motor.

Mod is the ultimate level for guys that really want to be the best drivers. You have more power than you could possibly use and throttle driving and car setups are critical. You can only drive full throttle in a couple places on the track per lap.

Even though 19/10.5 can generate very close lap time to Open Mod there is an enormous difference in feel. A really good 19T driver can't just step up to Mod and be really fast. The gap in power and skill necessary to be fast is really big.

This is why I think 13.5 would be a very poor choice to be the next spec mod class. Like I said before...forget lap times. Its all about the feel of driving these motors. 13.5 is too close to 17.5 in feel and speed to do any good for up and coming drivers. The jump to open mod would be even more shocking.

Of the currently available motors only the 10.5 is close enough to Mod feel to be a good midpoint between 17.5 and open mod.
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Old 01-06-2008, 10:17 AM   #420
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Adrian/others-

I think the most important part is that ROAR finds a middle ground that gives local tracks a good base to establish fair competitive racing in their respective areas.

Ultimately what works best for your area and brings racers through the doors to race is what is most important to the local race track.

So in Florida they want to stick with the 10.5 /19trun class then great! Thatís what works best on large asphalt tracks then great.

But here in the Midwest we feel that the 13.5 has plenty of speed to replace the 19 turn motor/class and this is what is most popular then stick with this set up. In fact it really depends on what everyone has to race at local tracks across their respective areas. Especially since the 13.5 seems to be a motor that many have its very hard not to ignore. Life would have been much easier if the sintered rotor and 17.5 was released before the 13.5 but oh well.

For the most when ROAR comes out in the next few weeks and announces that they have decided it really is deciding what they/ROAR want to set up for National guide lines and classes for National events. This may or may not affect your local racing because your local racing has already established what works best for their area.

So Adrian it won't be the end of the road if ROAR wants to use the 13.5 as the next 19 turn class. I see both points being valid but I don't see this changing what is working down in Floridaor what works best here in Michigan.
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