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Old 01-04-2008, 05:49 PM   #361
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How about going in a different direction concerning the 27t vs 13.5 battle.

If the motor rules were updated to allow the brushed 27t to use ball bearings and change the rule on Magnets, Ceramic, Neodymium or Ferrite only.
To allow Cobalt and other rare earth magnets.

That would allow newer technology to come into play in the stock class on a more equal footing.
The problem with this idea is that if this technology does in fact improve the motors as much as people hope then every 27T motor already sold and being built under the old rules would be useless overnight. Talking about a bunch of equipment that would all clog up racers pits.

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Old 01-04-2008, 05:50 PM   #362
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I thought the reason for 17.5 was to slow the stock class down a bit, adding bearings, better magnets, and adjustable timing to the 27s would only make the class faster, making it even harder for new racers to come in and learn the things that might keep them racing....

and I saw the same thing today that Rick did 4 seconds was the difference between TQ in mod and 10.5, from that it seems 13.5 might be a much better step up from 17.5, especially when you think about how many already have 13.5s, its a ready made class, doesnt have to build, more than likely the biggest class at every race for a few years.....
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Old 01-04-2008, 05:58 PM   #363
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if you were to do any official roar poll i would have the roar website up and running so people could 'log in' using the roar # and vote like it is planned to be.

How about this, who here doesn't think stock should be slowed down? Are the 17.5 endorsing folks against dropping to a 19.5, 21.5 or 23.5 seeing how all this technology is relatively new and will most likely get faster in the future (like it always have).
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Old 01-04-2008, 06:26 PM   #364
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Mason you are right it will only get faster and I suspect really FAST. When picking what would be the ideal BL motors to be compared to Brushed motors picking a BL motor that is slower than a Brushed motor would be a better choice. Tuning down the speeds for the lower classes would help with the stagnation of racers not wanting to move up.

Before motors windings are choosen, the voltage at which the motors will be running is more critical. Many classes such as the 1:10 sedan and offroad are marginally affected by the use of LiPO's but when other classes such as Oval and 1:12 they are greatly affected by that change to LiPO.

This is a fact that all racers and racing organizations have to face is that NiMH will no longer be the choosen power source for many industries. This means the cost of securing supplies of NiMH batteries will be greater as more and more battery manufactures move to support the larger industries developing Lithium based batteries. I would rather pay $50 for a 2P2S 26660 pack than nearly $90 for 6-Cell NiMH pack. I foresee that cost only to go higher as the celing for that technology has been reached and racers will still demand higher voltage curves.

I see the future being 7.4V for all classes, but that future is at least a decade away. For the interm, I see 6.6V LiFePO4 cells being a great compromise to for all classes and 7.4V Hard Cased LiPOs being the standard for 1:10 classes excluding oval.

With the interm voltage and the future voltage being 7.4 I see the main classes being 17.5, 13.5, 10.5 and MOD, The only Execption to that would be 1:12 and Oval, and they would most likely have 21.5 as a spec class.
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Old 01-04-2008, 06:29 PM   #365
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Ya know, I think we are so busy talking about 10.5, or 13.5, or 17.5 that we may be missing the point.

Maybe, just maybe, we are at the limit of what the vehicle can handle, maybe the people too. Looking at the Novak race it is clear that 10.5 is darn near as fast as Mod, not fastest laps but in five minutes there is only a four second difference. If the guys that are in the "A" mains at that race can't go any faster it seems we are at the limit of the cars and drivers.

I guess my point is that everything probably needs to go slower, if the 10.5 guys at that race are that fast what the heck are the rest of us supposed to do...hit stuff harder is probably the answer.

So my vote is something like 17.5 or slower preferably, 13.5 and Mod. And most guys will go faster with a 10.5 when they run Mod, it would be nice to slow down Mod but how you do that is could take another 20 pages.
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Old 01-04-2008, 06:38 PM   #366
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Another thought....

I work on NASCAR stuff, next year the Nationwide (Busch) series and Truck series are going to run a restricted engine that is about 80 horsepower down from where they are today. Guess what, when you are at a track where you have to roll out of the throttle or use brakes the lower output actually increases corner speed.

Why, because at higher entry speeds the vehicle is going faster than the tractive force available...therefore you go slower. Not on the straight but lap times are almost the same....just like 10.5 and Mod
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Old 01-04-2008, 06:43 PM   #367
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As a 12th racer, I'm happy with just waiting until next year or later to come up with rules for 12th LiPo.

There aren't really any cells out there for 12th yet so I don't see a reason to go all nuts about rules for 12th until there are batteries available.

I'm perfectly happy with 17.5 "stock" and either 13.5 or 10.5 for "19T". I would prefer 13.5 for 19 but that's just my preference.
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Old 01-04-2008, 06:48 PM   #368
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No need to slow down mod since you can run a crawler motor if you wanted to. The only thing that needs to be slowed down is stock since it is the slowest class and the entry point for beginners......

The speed difference between a 10.5 and a 3.5 or 4.5 brushless is huge lap time wise and overall time in 5 min. on larger tracks.
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Old 01-04-2008, 06:49 PM   #369
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The race going on this weekend really couldnt have come at a better time, it will give the rules makers a chance to look at real race times, they can actually see, and compare the lap times between the different motors over a race weekend, not just test sessions.

They gave us a week to discuss and say what we were thinking, now its up to them to take the testing information they already had, the opinions we all so willingly gave them, and the lap times from a major race, and make a set of rules for us to race with....

Im excited about the future of RC Car racing, and the new steps being taken to bring it back to something that will build up the numbers of racers.....
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Old 01-04-2008, 06:52 PM   #370
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A few pages back we were pretty much all agreeing that 10.5 and 19t are running very close in speeds. Now it's 13.5's and 19t together.....

Thank goodness my local track(s) have both added 13.5 and 10.5 classes with either lipos or nimh and we race for 8 minutes! With the effiency of the motors, the 8 minute runtime is NO problem for either battery.

Electric racing for 8 minutes.....it is the future....the rest of you need to get here...
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Old 01-04-2008, 06:56 PM   #371
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13.5 is only about a lap off mod at the Novak...
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Old 01-04-2008, 06:56 PM   #372
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Come on Dawn, bite the bullet, create a poll. I for one will my fellow club members know about it. Use the results at committee level for the good of all.

Go for it... !! I'll use the information....

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Old 01-04-2008, 07:09 PM   #373
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Electric racing for 8 minutes.....it is the future....the rest of you need to get here...

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Let's not change the subject of this thread.
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Old 01-04-2008, 07:26 PM   #374
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From the outside, looking in on this debate, the sad thing is that this is what happens when new technology is ignored for too long. In oval racing, the BRL has been running a smooth, successful racing program for a long time now. they have a huge head start on rules and an understanding of the technology involved. If ROAR makes sweeping changes to the defacto standards (i.e. BRL) for oval racing, it will (in my opinion) hurt ROAR -- oval racers will stick with BRL.

Don't get me wrong -- we need standards, and on the greater stage of RC racing, ROAR is the primary sanctioning body, but why open a can of worms and stir the pot when standards are already pretty much set...?

I wish them luck, because at this stage, as the debate has shown, almost any position they take will bring them a lot of ill feeling. I love 13.5, 4-cell oval, even though I am a long time "brushed" guy (TD45 dyno, diamond bit comm lathe, the "works"). I will say I'd like to see 4-cell 17.5, 13.5, and (for our track at least) "mod" (10.5 is as fast as Mod on our 160' racing line carpet oval -- no need to separate them).

For 6-cell onroad or offroad or dirt oval (I've run them all), 13.5 and 27t are head to head, 10.5 and 19t are just as equal....
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Old 01-04-2008, 07:42 PM   #375
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Let's not change the subject of this thread.
Ted....I simply stated it's the future....don't get riled. As far as 8 minute racing goes....I didn't intend it is the "right now"....but I do believe it's next....and we're already testing it at the club level. While many are debating what BR and BL motors to run together for ROAR rules, our series has already decided what to put in place. The racers and the organizers of the series worked hard to try and come to a happy medium to meet the needs of all the racers. The series is going into its 28th year of operation. Below you can read where we're starting...with the first race coming up this month under the new rules.


The Florida State Series has always been a leader of electric on-road racing. ROAR has been a big part of keeping all racers on a level playing field. Racing in the Florida State series does require a ROAR Membership. In addition here are the rules you need to know to race.

Sportsman 1/10th TC 27t or 13.5* BL Roar Approved 6 cell or Hard Cased Lipo Spec - CS-27 53.0 oz 190mm TC approved

Expert 1/10th TC 19t or 10.5* BL Roar Approved 6 cell or Hard Cased Lipo Spec CS-27 53.0 oz 190mm TC Approved

Pro 1/10th TC Any Brushed or Sensored BL Roar Approved 5 or 6 cell / Hard Cased Lipo Spec CS-27 51.8 or 53.0 oz 190mm TC Approved

Masters 1/10th TC 27t or 13.5* BL Roar Approved 6 cell or Hard Cased Lipo Spec CS-27 53.0oz 190mm TC Approved

1/12 1/12th Pan 19t or 10.5* BL Roar Approved 4-cell Open 794 grams 1/12th Roar Approved

Novice 1/10th TC 27T 6 cell / Hard Cased Lipo 53.0 Oz 190mm TC Roar Approved
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