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Old 01-03-2008, 06:43 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by Dawn Sanchez View Post
Wow... don't go there....

Lets just get past brushless in stock first... LOL

This may help the difference in 27t and 13.5 which seems to be the biggest stumbling block in a consensus.
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Old 01-03-2008, 06:45 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by IKE
Don't forget that 17.5 presents some bigtime gearing issues for oval
Wasn't really an issue - we just geared UP - same thing we did when we moved to 4 cell about 10 years ago.

PRS makes down to at least a 76t SPUR and upto a 58t PINION now - so we can get pretty tall.

I would bet if gearing is a problem for TOURING and other GEAR Reduction type cars... you'd see Gear Boxes with different ratios fairly quick too.

What did the MONSTER type trucks do for gearing when originally they used the same ratio gear box as the smaller tired buggies?

If I'm not mistaken - they changed!
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Old 01-03-2008, 06:45 PM   #273
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Not sure if you're just messing with us or if you're serious here...
I was..

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Also, Dawn, you yourself said earlier that you didn't like the idea of 17.5 for stock racing because it's only one manufacturer. After that you said you were leaning towards not changing stock and leaving it at 27T. But now you're saying... "I think IF stock remains in nationals - it should be 17.5 only." The indecisiveness with you, and all of us for that matter, should tell you that this isn't a decision that should be made in a couple weeks time just after you and many others have jumped into a new position.

I also said this were my feelings. Yes, I think 17.5 with only one MFG is a problem.. since I said that yesterday, well, I have had SEVERAL interesting conversations....

so, lets just say, I think we might be making a good decision even with my transparent flip-flopping.... LOL

Yes, I'm having a hard time making my mind up and is every person on the Excom.. and we make this decision and put in print the fate of Brushless motors in ROAR in just a few days.....

As you can see, I have changed my mind on a few items... and stuck to my guns on some others....

You guys should be learning a little about where I stand and hoping I am standing for YOU and what you want.
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Old 01-03-2008, 06:52 PM   #274
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Seems to me the best thing ROAR can do now is gather as much information as they can over the next couple months and hold off on making any big decisions until after NATs.
No.. we have rules on paper that were written by a representative of pretty much every motor company in the industry. A few declined participation....

we have exactly the plans of these companies and what they are asking to get done.... and we have done this over the entire year of 2007. We already have the research done so we can move forward in 2008... we did this and we are going to put in print the work we did. (we.. ha!! David Lee, ROAR Technical Director formed the MFG Committee and kept up the communication. He presented to the Excom a very detailed set of rules to be published and ideas of where we need to go.)

My reason for coming here was to hear what you guys want... I know what the plan is and where we will be going and I want to ensure you are heard at our meeting.

And, yep.. you have changed my mind in a few areas..
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Old 01-03-2008, 06:53 PM   #275
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After testing during 07 local racing has decided the following rules for 2008 (Victoria, Australia).

Stock, 13.5T Novak or LRP BL motors only or 27TRB as per standard. (13.5T was considered the same speed as a 27TRB and from what I have seen at local tracks it was the same speed as good brushed motors)

19T, Novak 8.5T BL motor only. (it was accepted the 8.5T was slightly faster but they decided to use it for 08 regardless)

Nicad or Nimh batteries only.
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Old 01-03-2008, 06:55 PM   #276
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Not sure if you're just messing with us or if you're serious here... I think about the only thing most agree on in this thread is that a good 19T and a 10.5 are about as close to equal as a brushed and BL motors get.

Also, I have seen very few people come on here and say "what about my CO27 or Monster stock". Brushed motors are all but dead already without much influence from ROAR, why go out of your way to try to level the playing field for a motor that is already barely surviving. I don't really see anyone on here campaigning to save the brushed motor. In fact, this is a motor thread, yet more people are expressing concern for the C cell going away than the brushed motor.

Still Charming,
Ike
You might try reading the whole thread, it is about coming up with a set of rules to bring BL into an existing set of classes, namely stock and 19t.
you don't want 13.5 dumped but expect all the current 27t racers to dump all of there equipment just to be able to compete in 13.5 stock so the people that jumped the gun and bought into the 13.5 is "equivilent to stock", which at the beginning before sintered rotors was close, have all the marbles even though that now 13.5 is way to close to 19t/10.5

ROAR won't let that happen! They may phase BL into stock over a period of time, but are not going to ailienate the biggest class of ROAR and other major race attendees in one fell swoop.
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Old 01-03-2008, 07:04 PM   #277
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Most current 1/12th cars can accomodate a 17.5's gearing needs easily. PRS, Robinson and RW racing all make 78T or smaller spurs and this lets you hit the necessary gear ratios without unusuallly large pinions.
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Old 01-03-2008, 07:08 PM   #278
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17.5bl
10.5 / 19t
open mod BR or BL
I really like these 3-classes. Get rid of 27T Brushed (it's mostly dead at the club level anyway) making Stock BL only, then all other classes are combined with BR and BL.

I think in the end, even with the option of BR or BL motors, BL will be the motor of choice with racers since no maintenance is required to competitvely finish a race weekend.
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Old 01-03-2008, 07:10 PM   #279
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OK so I feeling that after reading for 30 minutes this thread has concluded that:

1:12 could be changed to LiPO's 7.4V or LifePO4 6.6V if the motor was downsized. 4-Cell NiMH seems to be a better choice for now.

1:10 Oval is somewhat in the same boat as 1:12 but could make due running 7.4V. 6.6V would be a better choice in saftey and standarized cell size

Sedan would be content running LiPO, LiFePO4 or NiMH between on 4.8V, 5.0V, 6.6V, 7.2V and 7.4V.


About the Motors, IMO I see this trend in the comprosiming solution.

17.5T is the new stock, Mixed running of 27T brushed motors allowable excpet for large events.

13.5T is the new 19T or intermediate modifed. In the future I see 19T running with 13.5 in mixed class racing. Brushless motors will get faster! Right now I see 19T has the advantage and can be ran with 10.5T

10.5T is local level MODIFIED and will be a large attended class at big events by racers who are not sponsored and sponsered.

10.5T+ is the PROMOD class and will hardly see any local/sport racing. Team Drivers and Large Trophy Events.
(26650 sized LiFEPO4s, Next generation 3.7V 26650 could replace 3.3V cells easily in the future)

About the LiPO situation. The tend I am seeing that is that Hardcased LiPOs are great for Sedans and 21.5T oval cars and 1/10 Off road. 5-Cell and 6.6V classes would be more acceptable in these racing classes.

For 1:12, I gather LiPo's would kill the current class and call for a redesign or cars and rules. I would think 380 sized motors would be a good fit with LiPO's

I suggest that in any class that moves away from NiMH either uses the hardcased 7.4V LIPO bricks (6-cell size) or move to the 26650 cell size form factor.

About the 26650 cells. If racers move to LiFePo4 cells now the compromising between all sides is marginal: Size, Weight, Voltages. In the future when 26650 cells have more stable LiPO cells going from 6.6V to 7.4V would be a marginal changeover since the chassis have been designed for that cell size. This would also be great for sedan manufactures. Using the 26650 sized cells, Euro classes would run 6.6V packs and the US could hold onto 7.4V liPO's both using the same battery try and batteries of same weight just different chemistrys. Sedan battery trays would also easily fit a LiPo hardcased brick making the compromise for 26650 cells even less. 1:12 cars have a choice in 26650 either 2 cells or 4 cells.. 2-Cells would be ideal when running 380motors, 2S2P 26650 cells would same weight as a 4-cell NiMH pack but of the size of 6-cell NiMH pack and the 540 motor would be more suitable. I perfer the 2-Cells and 380 motors to reduce the cost of this racing class. Oval racing would most likely use 6.6V 26650 cells as their main staple for many years since the excess voltage would be to fast.
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Old 01-03-2008, 07:13 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by Dawn Sanchez View Post
My reason for coming here was to hear what you guys want... I know what the plan is and where we will be going and I want to ensure you are heard at our meeting.
And, yep.. you have changed my mind in a few areas..
Question....why bother hearing what "you guys want", when the plans been made, and you know where you will be going?

The word will leaves no room for an opinion to matter.
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Old 01-03-2008, 07:20 PM   #281
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Originally Posted by trailranger View Post
13.5T is the new 19T or intermediate modifed. In the future I see 19T running with 13.5 in mixed class racing. Brushless motors will get faster! Right now I see 19T has the advantage and can be ran with 10.5T

10.5T is local level MODIFIED and will be a large attended class at big events by racers who are not sponsored and sponsered.
BZZZZZZT! Everybody I know who's experienced both feel that 10.5 and 19T are as close laptime-wise as the two techs get. Since (imho) 19T is the best of ALL worlds in RC it would be a shame to end up with a significantly different "Speed Category" (which 13.5 would create).

I don't have either motor myself (borrowed a 10.5 at Denver...woo-ee fun!!) so I don't have any particular dog in the race, but I KNOW I'd prefer to see 10.5 replace 19T. 13.5 has a place at the club level to advance "Stock" racers to, but I agree with the many that a 17.5-10.5-Open/Mod class structure makes the most sense Nationally.

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Question....why bother hearing what "you guys want", when the plans been made, and you know where you will be going?

The word will leaves no room for an opinion to matter.
You even quoted the "payoff"...THAT THE DISCUSSIONS HERE HAVE CHANGED HER MIND IN A FEW AREAS. Duh.

Some people just choose to be difficult.
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Old 01-03-2008, 07:33 PM   #282
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Question....why bother hearing what "you guys want", when the plans been made, and you know where you will be going?

The word will leaves no room for an opinion to matter.
Kevin,

I am not trying to pick on you and I am attempting to say this as nice as possible. Dawn is probably the best friend BL and even the Lipo people have had to date that is in a position to help create and modify the rules. Roar has been attacked, and in some cases rightfully so in the past for not trying to listen to the racers. Now the President of ROAR spends some time daily posting her opinions to us and asking for our feedback and you seem not to appreciate it. She is just trying to figure out what would make the most sense since its not practical to keep creating more classes thus thinning out the low turnouts further. Try to help some.

Steve
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Old 01-03-2008, 07:36 PM   #283
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LOL - I think both sides are right on the 13.5 - 19t - 10.5 issue.

Both the 13.5 and the 10.5 are really close to 19t speeds.

Usually what I've seen the 13.5 is just a tick SLOWER but really close to 19t on a lot of tracks, where the 10.5 is usually just a tick faster than most of the 19t's.

The newest 19t's have brought them closer than the older 19ts were...
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Old 01-03-2008, 07:37 PM   #284
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. everyone is giving their experience with the 13.5 and 10.5 motors, and thats gonna depend on driver, car, setup, track type, track size, traction, etc, etc etc, at the end of last season, on a very large open outdoor track, a couple of the 13.5 guys with 13mm rotors were able to match or come within a couple of tenths of the 10.5 and 19t guys. there may be a need to have a set of ROAR National rules, and let the clubs run what is popular. i.e. at nats run 17.5, 10.5/19t and open mod. for a club, if your biggest class is 13.5 then yea, dropping it and making everyone buy a 17.5 doesn't make sense. however, for a novice/newbie the 17.5 would be a perferred motor over 13.5. i would say, even more preferred then what our tracks biggest class, silver can, as there is zero maintenance and no voo doo magic. i've seen stock drivers smoke 13.5's i've seen 19t's smoke 10.5's, our track runs eight minute heats with brushless and that in it self is a attraction over brushed.

sounds like to me, roar has been working quietly behind the scenes, and doing their homework pretty hard on this. Thanks, i guess now i will have renew my membership so i can cry when things don't go the way I want.

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Old 01-03-2008, 07:44 PM   #285
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Kevin,

Now the President of ROAR spends some time daily posting her opinions to us and asking for our feedback and you seem not to appreciate it. She is just trying to figure out what would make the most sense since its not practical to keep creating more classes thus thinning out the low turnouts further. Try to help some.

Steve
Not trying to be difficult, but if you read the statement doesn't it somewhat close the door on opinions really mattering? Alot of people are putting some time in to express their opinions, but if the decisions been made...what does it matter? If there is some debate left, and wiggle room for the "peoples voice" to matter thats great. Just didn't read that way to me. Of course I've been accused of being too literal before...hopefully I am again.
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