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Old 01-03-2008, 12:13 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by LOSI BOY-MF2 View Post
Isnt that what the rookie or sportsman class is for??
Back in the day, stock was the sportsman class.
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Old 01-03-2008, 12:13 PM   #212
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I forgot to add in the method of determining the difference in speed is the 'Driver Factor'

Are these speeds being determined using the SAME DRIVER with both motors, or is the ability and skill of the driver not being considered against one another?

If you put your TOP drivers on the track - on a tight technical track.

Hook that driver up with a well setup 27t car, a 19t car, a 13.5 car and a 10.5 car.

What kind of speed differences are you seeing between the 4? How much FASTER is Open Mod (laptime wise and total number of laps?)

How much difference vs. track records (if kept) on that particular track?

(I know...a lot of questions...but this is the way we were testing the different motors for our use... trying to put together SOLID data that was able to be backed up "on paper" in 'RACE' conditions. Because we knew you can't just say "They run the Same Speed" or "X" motor is Faster. People want data and facts.)

Here's a sample of a comparison from one of the bigger oval races this year that actually ran both the 17.5/4cell and Stock 4 cell classes. (This was the OVAL MASTERS)

NOTE: The STOCK driver is known to be a top level STOCK racer, I do not know the level of the 17.5 driver.



NOTE: The STOCK Motor did run faster - but was driven by a racer with a KNOWN Setup, and with a Motor he had a lot of experience with, whereas the 17.5 was a BRAND NEW deal at this track, and had a HUGE learning curve.

It's my understanding that the 17.5 has since picked up quite a bit of speed since this event, and virtually every time it hits the track - it beats its previous best run as the learning continues.

Also, I didn't add it to the results picture but here are the other qualifying results from that race.


58 laps in 13.5 4.00 fast lap
61 laps in 10.5 (with a 4:00) 3.79 fast lap
66 laps in MODIFIED (with a 4:00) 3.49 wicked fast lap


NOTICE how much quicker the 13.5 motor was than either STOCK or 17.5. If you look at 10.5 vs. the separation up to the MODIFIED class you'll see quite a speed difference too, and the 10.5 was over .2 per lap faster than the 13.5. (Also note both the 10.5 and OPEN MOD cars only ran for 4 minutes vs. the 5 minutes the other classses ran)
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Old 01-03-2008, 12:20 PM   #213
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ROAR should be careful and think about how much improvment there might be in future battery and motor technology. If you think about how fast ROAR legal stock motors have become since the first ROAR legal stock motor and the first legal sub-c cells, you can only expect the same increase in performance in the future of brushless and lipo technology.

If the first legal stock brushless motor and lipo batteries rules make them similar to todays stock speeds, imagine how fast the stock class will be after 10 years of brushless motor and lipo battery improvements. New rules should consider the fact that technology will improve and so will performance.
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Old 01-03-2008, 12:21 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by Johnny Wishbone View Post
I understand what your trying to do by slowing down the beginers, but I can honestly tell you, from all the different types of racing I have done, not just R/C, no one has ever, ever, ever asked me how slow can it go!

It is probably the very last thing a newbie is concerned about at the start, anyways.

Part of the learning curve is in learning to drive what you have, be it a 3.5 BL or a 7 turn BR, or the 21.5, 17.5, 13.5, 27t.


If thats the case then we would all be running mod....

The fact is the learning curve is a lot steeper than when i first started and mostlikely whey you started.

I know a lot of newbies show up with machine wound modifieds to run and they pretty much demolish thier car. Then they find out even the stock motors of the beginners class is still too fast.... I'm not trying to get these cars to crawling speed but more to the speeds from at least 4-5 years ago would be some what managable for a beginner....
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Old 01-03-2008, 12:24 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by AdrianM View Post
Most of the US races outdoors on asphalt. I run 19T or open mod mostly. 13.5 in a sedan is not exciting to me and is certianly not as fast as a 19T at my local 170x50 track . 10.5 is perfect pace wise with a 19T.

13.5 is too fast compared to stock an not as fast as 19T so the classes should be:

17.5/27T

10.5/19T

Open Mod

13.5 gets raced at club races as long as there is interest in it then it goes away just like 23T did on the late 80's.
I think this is the best compromise since there needs to be a compromise and to try to include all would not work. Some other things to consider.
Even with brushed motors a stock has gotten too fast and most newbies/novice struggle with the speed and a 13.5 will only make that more difficult. A 17.5 would be great for stock. Sure it is slightly slower, but not slower than a lot of stocks in the past. No one was complaining of stock speed back when we only had P2Ks, etc. and now we are going much faster. We also need to plan for the future. We are in the early stages of brushless and things will only continue to get faster. Batteries have always and continue to increase in power and speed and this will continue for either lipo or Nimh. ESCs and BL will get better too. I'm sure in no time the 17.5 will be plenty fast- right now there is only Novak making it. I can't imagine that in 2 years that the 17.5 we have now will be going the same speed- just look at technology and history- it just wont happen, it will be faster and we should accept that fact.

Now for the guys holding on to brushed stock and 13.5 motors. Keep em, we've been running brushed 27t motors for a while now and when we go to big races we don't get to run them anyways, remember handout motors? Unfortunately, when running brushed for handout, one won't due, often we purchase a couple to find the "fast" one. Well with brushless, sure it is a new purchase for a 17.5, but once it's purchased that's it. Last year I probably purchased at least a dozen handout stockers for various races (no you can't use the same handout at different races), and no one I know used those same handouts back home at their local club race. Seems like 17.5 is a small compromise and cost. Sure your old 13.5 may be obsolete, but so is my cases of Reedy MVPs, P2ks, Slot Machines, Monsters, etc., etc. along with brushes (God I still have dozens of f-brushes, XXX, quazars, 767s, 766s, 4499s, etc.).
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Old 01-03-2008, 12:53 PM   #216
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If you opened up stock motor rules a little then we wouldnt be fighting about which is faster.
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Old 01-03-2008, 12:54 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Scrubb View Post
ROAR should be careful and think about how much improvment there might be in future battery and motor technology. If you think about how fast ROAR legal stock motors have become since the first ROAR legal stock motor and the first legal sub-c cells, you can only expect the same increase in performance in the future of brushless and lipo technology.

If the first legal stock brushless motor and lipo batteries rules make them similar to todays stock speeds, imagine how fast the stock class will be after 10 years of brushless motor and lipo battery improvements. New rules should consider the fact that technology will improve and so will performance.
Exactly
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Old 01-03-2008, 01:17 PM   #218
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If you opened up stock motor rules a little then we wouldnt be fighting about which is faster.
I'm all for opening up the mod brushed (or 19 turn) rules but to open the stock rules? Why on earth would we want to make our entry level class even faster when it's already too fast for beginners? If anything, I think we need to have another event like back in 91 that would slow them down and make them last longer between rebuilds.

For all of the brushed guys that want to go faster, there are classes out there that are faster both brushed and brushless.

As a brushless racer, I don't want to kill the brushed classes but I do want to see more people get into racing. The best way to do that is to have classes where new people can start running and learn how to drive at a reasonable speed. I honestly don't know if the best place to start is brushed or brushless but we do need to get more people into racing.

Now is the perfect time to set the new rules and possibly plan ahead for changes next year for the classes that aren't new this year. We need to have time for the manufacturers to actually come up with the new products that meet the rules.
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Old 01-03-2008, 01:32 PM   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrubb View Post
ROAR should be careful and think about how much improvment there might be in future battery and motor technology. If you think about how fast ROAR legal stock motors have become since the first ROAR legal stock motor and the first legal sub-c cells, you can only expect the same increase in performance in the future of brushless and lipo technology.

If the first legal stock brushless motor and lipo batteries rules make them similar to todays stock speeds, imagine how fast the stock class will be after 10 years of brushless motor and lipo battery improvements. New rules should consider the fact that technology will improve and so will performance.
Agreed and just to add look at how much faster the brushless motors have gotten in the last year or so with the sintered rotors.
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Old 01-03-2008, 01:34 PM   #220
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Stock- 17.5 or SLOWER (The future will always lead to faster motors)
Expert Spec- 13.5
Open Mod -ANY

Right now we have a chance to set the course for the next 10-20 years of racing. Look at where the current 24* rules have lead to with the battery improvements. We need to look to the future, and make a decision that will benefit the most racers, and help to draw in more beginners.

Slow the cars down. At least in the spec classes.

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Old 01-03-2008, 01:44 PM   #221
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Adding bearings is a start.
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Old 01-03-2008, 01:46 PM   #222
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Adding bearings is a start.
Wow... don't go there....

Lets just get past brushless in stock first... LOL

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Old 01-03-2008, 01:50 PM   #223
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Wow... don't go there....

Lets just get past brushless in stock first... LOL

Are not the proposed BL motors for stock equivalent bearing equiped motors?
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Old 01-03-2008, 01:59 PM   #224
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IMO, people are dumb.

They think, oh lets go race RC cars, they get the fastest car/batt/motor they can buy, and then complain it breaks down on them. WTH?

See it al the time here.

maybe the world needs what the club i'm in did now: Quit Racing!

We run indoor 10 months.

They had race/practise till now.

People dont learn how their cars work on a race, they are nervous, stressed and dont have fun.

So for 2008 its all practise sessions and in the last month there will be a "fun-race"

i don not know much about this race yet, but it wont be like most races i bet.

People who start out think when they see a car screaming down the back strait at 55mph that the driver isnt trained for that.

They just think, oh look, lets go ask wich motor he runs and go in the shop to buy the same one.


Just my opinion
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Old 01-03-2008, 02:01 PM   #225
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If we are talking about slowing down stock, which I do not think is a bad idea, lets really slow it down. Instead of 17.5 lets go to 21.5 motors or maybe 19.5. Lets take speeds back to around '86 or '90. When I started the original Monster Stock was the hot motor and a 10 turn was a really hot mod motor. Now the stock motors are running the speeds the 10 turn was then and that is ridiculous. While we are at it slow down the brushed stock motors too, go to a 30 turn motor or take the timing way down. That will slow things down and lower maintenance on the brushed motors too. But if we are talking about radical lets be radical.
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