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Old 01-03-2008, 11:21 AM   #196
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I tried a 14.5 in TC and it was slower than a stock 27.I've yet to see a 13.5 as fast as a 19t in TC.
Again, the 13.5 probably was not geared right, or you were running a bonded or overheated rotor.

All things equal (driver, car, battery) the 13.5 is without a doubt faster than 27T when geared properly, period. On top of that, I can run my 13.5 at the same level all day long w/o touching it. You can't do that with a 27T. If you read through all 7-pages here, it is clear the consensus is that 13.5 is faster than 27T for stock, so fast that it almost matches a 10.5/19T in performance.

We need a clear power seperation between classes. I would like to see approx 1.5-2.0 seconds a lap difference between 13.5/27T Stock and 19T/10.5, but what we have is less than 1/2-second difference between 13.5 and 19T. So maybe going to 17.5 and 10.5 we can get this separation. On tight tracks Modified is still only about a 1/2 second faster than 10.5.
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Old 01-03-2008, 11:27 AM   #197
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Here's a question for some of the TC guys....and Off-Road Guys too

How do you guys measure a car being "The Same Speed"?

Are you looking at Straight-a-way speeds?
Overall Lap Times?
Total number of Laps?
Look and Feel?


I know for the On-Road races I was directing last year and late in '06 we had several guys who ran 2 classes, both BRUSHED STOCK and 19t.

The guys who were running up front with STOCK motors, would have also been running UP FRONT in 19t w/ STOCK motors. The number of laps turned in by the two were usually just ONE lap different in a 5 minute run, and lap times were usually only about .5 seconds a lap different.

BUT - these were very tight, very technical and very long tracks. Average lap times were in the 18-20 second range per lap...and required a very skilled driver to be smooth and consistant.

On the flip side, the 'less skilled' guys running both usually ran FASTER with their STOCK motors than they did running 19t. So to an outside observer, STOCK looked like the FASTER Class..

...it been a long time since I ran any offroad, but we use to see this on one of our local offroad track too. The MORE technical the track, the looser the surface..the LESS power it took to go faster...because you were able to USE more of the power you had w/o being out of control...but on a large and hooked up track you could throw as MUCH power down as you could generate...and everyone looked like a decent driver.
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Old 01-03-2008, 11:31 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by SWTour View Post
Here's a question for some of the TC guys....and Off-Road Guys too

How do you guys measure a car being "The Same Speed"?

Are you looking at Straight-a-way speeds?
Overall Lap Times?
Total number of Laps?
Look and Feel?
Overall Lap Times and Number of Laps.
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Old 01-03-2008, 11:37 AM   #199
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For me, 13.5 in rubber tire touring was about .7 seconds a lap faster than my stock motor on roadcourse. The 13.5 would run away and hide from a stock motor coming off the corners. It got worse as the race went on...
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Old 01-03-2008, 11:38 AM   #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWTour View Post
Here's a question for some of the TC guys....and Off-Road Guys too

How do you guys measure a car being "The Same Speed"?

Are you looking at Straight-a-way speeds?
Overall Lap Times?
Total number of Laps?
Look and Feel?


I know for the On-Road races I was directing last year and late in '06 we had several guys who ran 2 classes, both BRUSHED STOCK and 19t.

The guys who were running up front with STOCK motors, would have also been running UP FRONT in 19t w/ STOCK motors. The number of laps turned in by the two were usually just ONE lap different in a 5 minute run, and lap times were usually only about .5 seconds a lap different.

BUT - these were very tight, very technical and very long tracks. Average lap times were in the 18-20 second range per lap...and required a very skilled driver to be smooth and consistant.

On the flip side, the 'less skilled' guys running both usually ran FASTER with their STOCK motors than they did running 19t. So to an outside observer, STOCK looked like the FASTER Class..

...it been a long time since I ran any offroad, but we use to see this on one of our local offroad track too. The MORE technical the track, the looser the surface..the LESS power it took to go faster...because you were able to USE more of the power you had w/o being out of control...but on a large and hooked up track you could throw as MUCH power down as you could generate...and everyone looked like a decent driver.

I measure speed by straight away speed and accelaration. Lap times are subjective to driving errors. I know when someone has a fast motor it. In the stock class the 13.5 is definately faster than even the best tuned 27turn motors. 10.5 and 19 seems to be pretty much the same. All these observations are for sedan...
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Old 01-03-2008, 11:47 AM   #201
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Do any of you guys follow On-Road Motorcycle Racing, or the Glory Days of CART Champ/Indy cars?

Everytime these racing organizers tried to equalize the Engines by size, power, etc... they failed. CART used to allow a Turbo Charged Buick V6 to race against Ford/Cosworth V8's. Indy tried for many years to allow different levels of boost for the Buick V6's to keep them equal despite have 2-less cylinders. During this time is when IRL came to light and said "here are our rules". IRL decided on one set of engine specs and created a new racing league. This alienated drives of CART and IRL, and Indy Car racing attendance went down the tubes.

The same problems still continue for motorcycle racing. Ducati continues to race a V-Twin, all the Japanese bikes run 4-cyl. For a while the 4-cyl were 750cc racing againt 1000cc V-Twins. V-Twin technology got better, faster, and all the 4-cyl makers complained year after year that the field was no longer equal since they could not compete against V-Twins. Finally, the race org allowed 1000cc 4-cyl's to be raced against 1000cc V-Twin's. Hoorah! Oops, only 2-years into this and the opposite happened. Now all the sudden the V-Twins makers were complaining the that could not stay competetive against 1000cc 4-cyl's. Now they are allowing 1200cc V-Twins to race against 1000cc 4-cyl. Where does it end? To keep Ducati racing a V-Twin and happy, the rules constantly have to be tweaked. It would have been much easier to have mad Ducati mad 10+ years ago and said, all engines will be 16-valve, 750cc, 4-cyl's, period.

Now, thinking this through, 27T will probably die in competitive racing within two years, so the rules will have to be temporarily tweaked to allow both. At some point, ROAR will have to embrace BL technology as the norm, and forget BR motors for anything other than Modified. Being able to pick up a new 13.5, 17.5, 10.5, etc... and be as competitive as some of the faster guys speaks HUGE volumes. Couple this with very little maintenance and consistent performance throughout a raceday, and BR motors no longer makes sense.

Last edited by kn7671; 01-03-2008 at 12:01 PM.
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Old 01-03-2008, 11:53 AM   #202
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For the legalization of BL Stock and 19T ROAR should not look to make the motors the SAME, instead the motors should be looked at in terms of SIMILAR.

If a new brushed motor came out right now that met all ROAR 27t specs it would be approved, there would have been few debates about how motor X is ridiculous in oval and is close in sedan.

We need to stop comparing stock to 19t, at this years IIC the top stock foam tc lap times were within a couple seconds of MOD Foam tc.

We need to move forward and not be bogged down by the brushed motors of the past.
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Old 01-03-2008, 11:58 AM   #203
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My reasoning to slowing down the stock class to 17.5 speed is so beginners can have a realistic speed where they can learn.

It's pretty safe to say that almost every one posting on this thread can wheel a 13.5 with out crashing every corner.
Face it the learning curve for r/c racing has become really steep for a typical beginner....
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Old 01-03-2008, 11:58 AM   #204
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Dawn, I feel sorry for you and the ROAR crew. It doesnt matter wich way you go there will be alot of people mad. Im just glad to see it all being legalized no matter the out come it's a good start.
Good luck.
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Old 01-03-2008, 12:01 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by Francis M. View Post
My reasoning to slowing down the stock class to 17.5 speed is so beginners can have a realistic speed where they can learn.

It's pretty safe to say that almost every one posting on this thread can wheel a 13.5 with out crashing every corner.
Face it the learning curve for r/c racing has become really steep for a typical beginner....
Isnt that what the rookie or sportsman class is for??
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Old 01-03-2008, 12:04 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by LOSI BOY-MF2 View Post
Dawn, I feel sorry for you and the ROAR crew. It doesnt matter wich way you go there will be alot of people mad. Im just glad to see it all being legalized no matter the out come it's a good start.
Good luck.
Really Im not sure anyone is going to be mad. I think we are all very excited about the changes and all have our own ideas of how it should work. We might be disappointed it doesnt exactly match our idea but any brushless class (besides mod) is better then nothing!
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Old 01-03-2008, 12:05 PM   #207
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Do any of you guys follow On-Road Motorcycle Racing, or the Glory Days of CART Champ/Indy cars?
Try telling GM or Toyota that the Honda didn't have more power with the new rules in the IRL. No two motors will ever be exactly the same brushed or brushless.

Its really not a problem for stock brushed now because everyone knows what the best stock motor is for the class they run. It's not going to be much different for BL either. Personally, I don't think that it's much of a problem if the motors are a little different. It's going to come down to the set-up and driving in the end for most of the classes regardless.
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Old 01-03-2008, 12:06 PM   #208
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Isnt that what the rookie or sportsman class is for??

changing the name of the class does'nt slow down the car....

If a season vet likes the speed why not just strap a 19 turn which isn't far of stock maintenance wise and set up.
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Old 01-03-2008, 12:07 PM   #209
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Isnt that what the rookie or sportsman class is for??
Yes, it is. But they don't normally run Rookie or Sportsman at Nationally Sanctioned Events. Were dealing with two sets of issues here, Club Racing and National Events. I know Clubs make up their own version of the rules to fit what the racers want to race, but it would be nice for ROAR to specify a set of Club racing guidelines to go along with official ROAR rules for Santioned National Events.
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Old 01-03-2008, 12:11 PM   #210
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I understand what your trying to do by slowing down the beginers, but I can honestly tell you, from all the different types of racing I have done, not just R/C, no one has ever, ever, ever asked me how slow can it go!

It is probably the very last thing a newbie is concerned about at the start, anyways.

Part of the learning curve is in learning to drive what you have, be it a 3.5 BL or a 7 turn BR, or the 21.5, 17.5, 13.5, 27t.
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