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Old 01-03-2008, 08:16 AM   #136
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George... your not a ROAR member.... I can't hear you until you are...



Kidding.... I understand what your saying.
Just waiting for the announcement , but I`v already started working for Roar...


Stay tuned...
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Old 01-03-2008, 08:29 AM   #137
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I never said I hate Lipo's. I have one in my transmitter and is one of the best investments I ever made in R/C.

I don't want this to be a Lipo thread. I want this to be a brushless thread so we can finally get some action.

I am stating that 7.2 volts or higher with brushless is way too fast for the major segment of the racing population, which is 90% stock drivers.

The cars need to be slowed down so begineers and pros can run their cars without breaking everytime they put their car on the track.

Brushless is the future lets get moving with making up some rules and classes.

Big thanks to Scotty Ernst and Novak for putting on the first all brushless race. I hope ROAR can get their act together and move forward from here.
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Old 01-03-2008, 08:34 AM   #138
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Big thanks to Scotty Ernst and Novak for putting on the first all brushless race. I hope ROAR can get their act together and move forward from here.
Just for fun.. ROAR has their act together.. it just so happens Novak and Scotty scheduled their events prior to ROAR's. I hope the 'lets wait and see what ROAR does first' attitude changes pretty quickly.... things take time and decisions must be made for the future, not for the next race..
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Old 01-03-2008, 08:34 AM   #139
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Just waiting for the announcement , but I`v already started working for Roar...


Stay tuned...

Gotta admit...

I'm scared.

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Old 01-03-2008, 08:44 AM   #140
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Don't lump us com turners into one group, the majority of these people that I have met, really do enjoy rebuilding and tweeking brushed motors, we consider it part of "racing"
Everyone that races is looking for an edge, from tires/foams to chassis all the way to different bodies, why leave out the art of building "race" motors?
Isn't the motor the main part of racing?
In nitro, why are there all kinds of "builders" on the market, well, to find a stronger faster engine.
You want to kill the heart of racing and force us all to use the standard "box" motor?

Leave BL to mod, keep "racing" in all the other classes!

Nitro is a bad example since there is only one type of motor for sedan and it is a three port .12 with most box stock motors being fast enough for most folks..... No one ever complains about motor tuners in mod sedan, why because there is more than enough power to begin with in mod sedan.

We need to just drop stock from national events and just make it 19t/10.5 and mod brushless/brushed similar to reedy races.....
this will settle down the stock class in a club level spending wise since all the pros, 50 drivers will want to spend time in 19t or mod and it gives beginners a step up or progression.....

Make the new stock 17.5 and leave this class for maybe regional events....
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Old 01-03-2008, 08:46 AM   #141
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The biggest problem is the cars are way too fast. We need to drop down to 4 or 5 cells in order to grow this hobby. Lipo is not the answer because the voltage is just too high.
I don't want this to be a LiPo thread either, but Huh? LiPo peak voltage is lower than NiMh! This sounds like you are judging LiPo by the static starting voltage of 7.4V, compared to 7.2V for NiMh. The truth is that a fully charged LiPo = 8.4V, where as NiMh 6-cell's top out around 9.2V+. This voltage variance could easily equal 3,000rpm's or more from the motor.

FACT: A good matched 6-cell NiMh pack will provide faster laptimes than LiPo.

When Mike Duma's runs at our track, I've looked over his laptimes very closely and notice that his fastest lap is usually before he reaches 5-10 laps. After that, his lap times slowly taper off from there, losing close to .5-seconds by the end of the race. When comparing Duma's times to other fast racers running LiPo (in which we hardly ever see a faster laptime from a LiPo battery) we notice that the LiPo powered cars are very consistent from lap #1 to lap #28. The consistency of LiPo powered cars result in faster laptimes towards the end of the race, being equal to or faster than NiMh.

I think the NiMh to LiPo argument is mute. LiPo is cheaper, safer, and easier to maintain. To summarize, NiMh will have an advantage through the first half of the race, LiPo will have the advantage at the back half.
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Old 01-03-2008, 08:50 AM   #142
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MOD Brushless/Brushed
10.5 brushless/ 19 brushed
17.5 Stock....

I suggest for roar to make guidelines for all these races but drop stock from the nationals and that will fix your stock into becoming beginner friendly again.

This is good but I would like to see the classes called:

Sportsman (using 17.5 or 27T)
Amateur or Intermediate (using 10.5 or 19T)
Expert (mod brushless/brushed)
Pro (factory drivers mode brushless/brushed)

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Old 01-03-2008, 08:54 AM   #143
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This is good but I would like to see the classes called:

Sportsman (using 17.5 or 27T)
Amateur or Intermediate (using 10.5 or 27T)
Expert (mod brushless/brushed)
Pro (factory drivers mode brushless/brushed)

Sounds good, since there should be at least a distiction on moving up....
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Old 01-03-2008, 08:56 AM   #144
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Alright, I don't run much on-road, but I do dabble when I remember to turn right. There's a thought that Steve touched on, and it hasn't been elaborated on a whole lot since.
  • Do we want equivalent classes, or do we want set class speeds independently of what we have now?
Talking to guys at Snowbirds last year, the general consensus was that cars were too fast in every class. Mod hit the ceiling for just how fast we can make cars go, and 19t just keeps getting faster so the gap between them has narrowed. Stock is now a bit too fast for the beginner, or even the average racer.
So why would you want to hamsting the introduction of new, better technology by trying to match it up with what some believe is a currently broken class structure?
My suggestion:
  • 17.5 is the new stock class. Slow things down a bit for the average racer and let them enjoy the racing more instead of just holding on.
  • 13.5 is the new limited modified. Its a tick slower than 19t, but sits pretty much in the middle of 17.5 and mod.
  • Mod is still mod. Run whatever you want, in terms of speed I think we've found the edge with current car designs so it truly is whatever your preference is.
Sure, at first 17.5 is a single manufacturer class, but with it added to the rules structure other companies will have motors up and running by the summer probably. By the time we hit paved nats you should have three more 17.5 motors approved and to choose from. Once we have several versions to choose from, only approve motors at the first of each year to avoid the motor of the week at a higher price scenario some are afraid of. Although, I know a lot of us at the club level will buy a motor, try it out, and pass it around to see if others like it. You don't have to worry about the wear and tear your buddy is putting on it, because the motors are so durable. So if you and your buddies each buy different motors to try out, you might each be out the cost of one dog motor a season.

Just my two cents, the biggest thing is I'd like to see is the change over to brushless be independent of what we have now. Make it a true step to the future, instead of a bridge decision to try to hang on to the past.
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Old 01-03-2008, 08:56 AM   #145
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Mason,

As an example, are you asking me how difficult it is to take an existing 13.5 unwind it, and rewind it as a 17.5?

If so the answer is that it's not terribly difficult...just wasteful as far as both time and materials go.

Essentially all of the wire + shorting ring need to be removed/disposed of ....and all new winds and shorting ring need to be installed/tested.

We do it here internally on a small scale if there are problems with certain motors or if we are really in a pinch to make some other motors that we don't have in stock...but as far as a solution to customer migration from one wind to another I don't think this particular solution would work.

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Steve, answer this for me/us.. How hard is it really to change the number of windings on a brushless motor these days? I don't know what all its involved. Perhaps you could explain an overview of the major points on this?
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Old 01-03-2008, 08:58 AM   #146
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This is good but I would like to see the classes called:

Sportsman (using 17.5 or 27T)
Amateur or Intermediate (using 10.5 or 27T)
Expert (mod brushless/brushed)
Pro (factory drivers mode brushless/brushed)
Rick, do you mean "either or" on the "Amateur or Intermediate (using 10.5 or 27T)", or run 27T with 10.5??
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Old 01-03-2008, 09:12 AM   #147
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I would like to ask when some racers decided that stock was too fast for everyone else. From what I remember, the move to 5-cell happened because mod racers were blowing up their electronics, and frying their motors. Running a 13.5 is a little different than running an 8turn brushed motor. It is much easier to change the motor than the batteries.

And if the argument is for lighter weight, the simple answer is LIPO. A lipo pack weighs 1/2 a nimh pack at 3200mah.

If the 13.5 is too fast and the 17.5 too slow, then novak should release a 15.5. Would that satisfy all of the brushed "motor tuners?" You will never find an equal brushless to brushed because brushless is more efficient and even if the motors start the same, brushless will be faster at the end of the run.

Racers run what they are comfortable with, and forcing them to be slower or faster is not the answer. Pretending that novices leave because the cars are too fast is also not the answer, because almost all novices want speed. You also have to seperate the novices into kids and adults. Telling an adult that their car is too fast for them is a sure way to get them to leave. Turning down a kids throttle throw to make them slower is easy and effective.

The biggest problem most racers have is finding power. The 13.5 motor is the perfect combination of power and speed for most racers. If the motor has too much torque, racers turn down the punch settings that all BL speedo's have.

The 13.5 is not a problem. What is a problem is brushed racers continually crying that the 13.5 is too fast. If 27t brushed power is the answer, you would have many more racers than you do now.
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Old 01-03-2008, 09:18 AM   #148
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I must say that I am not a ROAR member, nor is the track where I go a member of ROAR. As many of us know most tracks will follow, for the most part, ROAR guidelines.

With that said, ROAR must come up with BL rules for all classes. I currently have a Novak 13.5 and yes it is fast but I am adjusting. And yes I would be open to running a 17.5. But I will not go back to a 27T. I gave that up over a year ago and do not plan on going back.

ROAR has a tough decision to make. If 17.5 will be the new stock they are going to hear it from all of those who own a 13.5. And if 13.5 is stock then they will hear it from those who think itís too fast. Itís a lose/lose for them. So I hope they will make the tough decision and not just say leave stock 27T. Because if they make that choice then local tracks will make up there own BL stock classes and ROAR will no longer have as big of a voice with manufactures and tracks for this class. And if they wait on the stock BL decision then they might as well make 13.5 stock. Because that will be another year of racers buying a 13.5 and it will be that much harder to put the toothpaste back in the tube. Make the hard choice now Ďcus it will only be harder later.
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Old 01-03-2008, 09:20 AM   #149
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I would like to ask when some racers decided that stock was too fast for everyone else. From what I remember, the move to 5-cell happened because mod racers were blowing up their electronics, and frying their motors. Running a 13.5 is a little different than running an 8turn brushed motor. It is much easier to change the motor than the batteries.

And if the argument is for lighter weight, the simple answer is LIPO. A lipo pack weighs 1/2 a nimh pack at 3200mah.

If the 13.5 is too fast and the 17.5 too slow, then novak should release a 15.5. Would that satisfy all of the brushed "motor tuners?" You will never find an equal brushless to brushed because brushless is more efficient and even if the motors start the same, brushless will be faster at the end of the run.

Racers run what they are comfortable with, and forcing them to be slower or faster is not the answer. Pretending that novices leave because the cars are too fast is also not the answer, because almost all novices want speed. You also have to seperate the novices into kids and adults. Telling an adult that their car is too fast for them is a sure way to get them to leave. Turning down a kids throttle throw to make them slower is easy and effective.

The biggest problem most racers have is finding power. The 13.5 motor is the perfect combination of power and speed for most racers. If the motor has too much torque, racers turn down the punch settings that all BL speedo's have.

The 13.5 is not a problem. What is a problem is brushed racers continually crying that the 13.5 is too fast. If 27t brushed power is the answer, you would have many more racers than you do now.
I agree with most of this. I will say though I think most novice racers leave b/c of the cost of the hobby. They think their initial investment will be most of it. As we all know thats just the tip of the iceberg. People suggest that slower speeds results in less crashing / breaking which in turn reduces the cost. We all know we dont know whats best for us though. As a novice we all wanted to go fast and the breakage was the cars fault, not our inability to drive combined with our desire for faster speeds
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Old 01-03-2008, 09:21 AM   #150
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Time to throw so more fuel on the fire:

The big push for BL seems to me at least, the cost + frustration factor of running BL being much easier and that is being used to bring new blood to rc racing.
OK, I will go along with that.

Now for the racing part, I watch whats going on at the local tracks and more and more it is turning into, hey, ya gotta try this motor(BL) for this layout, and this new speedo really rips, but keep that other motor and speedo cause for certain layouts it works better, or for this track that other combo works better, but if your gunna do offroad to, you should use this speedo/bl combo.

That will really keep he cost of racing down!

There needs to be a reasonable cost racing class open to the non-pro's and that is stock as it is now, 27t. You can't just kill off the most popular class and if there is no matching BL system now, wait a year or two, the demand is there for BL companies to find a comparable motor.
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