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Old 01-04-2008, 01:14 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by stuey View Post
so basicly the answer to my question which is better sensor or sensorless is they work in a simular way but for best results you would need to use the correct motor because the way they are wound for eg (lrp/sensored) (novax/sensored) (tekin/sensorless) (GM/sensorles).

Hey Stuey, actually one of the Team drivers when testing many different configurations commented on how awesome the R1 worked with the Novak low turn motors, 3.5, 4.5, 5.5 etc. Although was struck by the sheer power and contol of the LRP mid range motors. Still they do not run as well as the Redline series motors.....
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Old 01-04-2008, 10:00 AM   #107
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Why is the HV maxx considered HV? I have a controller that can do both sensored and sesnorless and it will do 4S lipos. The only true HV sensored controllers that I have are my Aveoxs. I have the L (up to 16 cells nicad), the M (21 cells nicad) and the H (32 cells nicad).
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Old 01-04-2008, 10:05 AM   #108
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Mate you are clear now but I still don't completely agree.

Motor design is a complex area, and I will leave that to the designers.

I don't think the winding configuration will make a big difference to suitablity for sensored or sensorless design. Winding configuration is more aimed at the number of terms and the applied voltage.

From your posts I assume you are talking about monsta trucks, crawlers ect that run on 12 cells??
Well, maybe somebody can chime in and throw in some other information.

The majority of my experience in brushless involves non-typical setups, including 1/8 nitro-to-electric conversions, high voltage BL (10s A123), and 3s+ 1/10 trucks. I'm sure you can understand now why I am strongly in favor of the current sensorless technology.
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Old 01-04-2008, 11:13 AM   #109
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Shouldn't this be: Let the better driver win? Brushless is "supposed" to even out the playing field a little.
Rob, I thought it was let the bigger wallet win
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Old 01-04-2008, 12:27 PM   #110
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Rob, I thought it was let the bigger wallet win
I guess so. I didn't realize any form of racing was to unlevel the playing field
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Old 01-04-2008, 01:51 PM   #111
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You catch a corner on an indoor track and your car is rolling backwards, your senorless system will just cough and splutter for what feels like an age before it's heading back in the right direction. How frigin anoying...

Please refrain from bashing the sensored concept just because you don't like certain speedos, colours of motor etc.

I'm happy tekin, castle, GM, feigao, mtroniks are doing great work improving sensorless software. But why on earth is GM the only company to offer both solutions in the same package?

I am a fan of novak because I've had great experience with them but I wish they would also have sensorless drive as a back up or for those who want to use inferior cheap sensorless motors .
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Old 01-04-2008, 03:53 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by JevUK View Post
You catch a corner on an indoor track and your car is rolling backwards, your senorless system will just cough and splutter for what feels like an age before it's heading back in the right direction. How frigin anoying...

Please refrain from bashing the sensored concept just because you don't like certain speedos, colours of motor etc.

I'm happy tekin, castle, GM, feigao, mtroniks are doing great work improving sensorless software. But why on earth is GM the only company to offer both solutions in the same package?

I am a fan of novak because I've had great experience with them but I wish they would also have sensorless drive as a back up or for those who want to use inferior cheap sensorless motors .
hey jev you racing west kent sunday im in the mood for thrashing brushless on the race track.
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Old 01-04-2008, 08:21 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by JevUK View Post
You catch a corner on an indoor track and your car is rolling backwards, your senorless system will just cough and splutter for what feels like an age before it's heading back in the right direction. How frigin anoying...

Please refrain from bashing the sensored concept just because you don't like certain speedos, colours of motor etc.

I'm happy tekin, castle, GM, feigao, mtroniks are doing great work improving sensorless software. But why on earth is GM the only company to offer both solutions in the same package?

I am a fan of novak because I've had great experience with them but I wish they would also have sensorless drive as a back up or for those who want to use inferior cheap sensorless motors .
I have one controller that can also do both sensored and sensorless. It can also handle 4S lipos. I also noticed a couple other companies like Quark and SpeedPassion have ESC that can do both sensored and sensorless. The weater here in NJ will be in the 50s and I'll make a video of it in my TC3.
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Old 01-04-2008, 08:39 PM   #114
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Tower has the R1's in stock. Too bad the motors aren't out yet.
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Old 01-04-2008, 09:46 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by JevUK View Post
I'm happy tekin, castle, GM, feigao, mtroniks are doing great work improving sensorless software. But why on earth is GM the only company to offer both solutions in the same package?
Traxxas' Velineon ESC also is sensored/sensorless capable.

If I had to take a guess, I would guess the other companies aren't doing this because sensored is inferior... But I don't just mean that to bash sensored. With sensorless, the back-EMF the controller reads isn't only used for rotor position detection, it also allows the ESC to vary the timing to run the motor more efficiently.

Sensored is limited to the information the sensors provide, through a bunch of wires. Sensorless is limited to what the software/hardware of the ESC is capable of dealing with. That's why sensorless is getting better all the time and why sensored can't really be improved upon (aside from minor software tweaks).
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Old 01-05-2008, 03:38 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by MetalMan View Post
The current sensored motors on the market are delta wound, which others have already stated. Sensorless motors typically are wye wound, which to my knowledge works better because they allow the rotor to be more detectable than delta winds (an example being the cogging experienced when running Novak motors through a Mamba Max ESC).

I'd bet delta-wound motors are easier to "tech" than wye wound motors, which seems to be what NovakTwo was getting at.

I am a strong believer in sensorless technology. Never have I owned a sensored motor/ESC, nor do I plan to. The last time Novak got any of my money for anything power-related it was on an Explorer II that burned out quickly (although I will admit to having owned Novak ESCs since then). Sensorless is just so much more versatile, and due to the lack of sensored offerings in the market, sensorless is MUCH better in my opinion.

Sensored ESCs can't run any motor larger than the HV-Maxx motor (unless you go old school and get an Aveox motor), and the HV-Maxx motor really is crap in light of the other motors out there. And the largest sensored ESC is the HV-Maxx, which can't stay cool even with the use of the included fan, is limited to 4s Lipo, and will even drain one 2s Lipo pack down faster than the other (making charging/balancing the 2x 2s packs as 4s a major pain).

So, sensorless is better, with the exception of racing (because ROAR is too lame to allow motor designs that were out way before Novak came out with its own motors).
Hopefully the R1 will enlighten the ignorant...
Once again someone who is confused with brushless technology.

The actual sensored motors are nearly all Wye wound. However the recent opening of the EFRA rules have allowed some manufacturers to release some Delta wound motors.

Delta is a little better for sensorless as it provides a slightly better feedback (back EMF) to the speedo. However both types of winding are independant of the type of control, any speedo an drive a Delta wound motor, or a Wye wound motor (provided if the speedo is sensor based, that the motor has some sensors it can plug into).
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Old 01-05-2008, 03:47 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by MetalMan View Post
If I had to take a guess, I would guess the other companies aren't doing this because sensored is inferior.
Sensored control on it's own isn't inferior. Having sensored+sensorless is better than either just sensored or sensorless alone.
Having both gives you the best of both control methods, or should do if it's implemented well in the design and operation.

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Originally Posted by MetalMan View Post
Sensored is limited to the information the sensors provide, through a bunch of wires.
Sensored motor with sensored+sensorless control/software is better.

One disadvantage of sensorless control is as JevUK has said..

"You catch a corner on an indoor track and your car is rolling backwards, your senorless system will just cough and splutter for what feels like an age before it's heading back in the right direction. How frigin anoying..."

That's the problem (amongst others) with sensorless control, with sensored control this wouldn't happen. It might not be too much of a problem for bashing and fun driving but when you're racing it's a big disadvantage, it's something to be avoided at all costs!

Last edited by Terry_S; 01-05-2008 at 04:40 AM.
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Old 01-05-2008, 06:50 AM   #118
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Yeap that would be very bad in the middle on a race, but I do think that Tekin would do whatever they can to find a solution.

On the R1 Pro specification they mention
Motor/Reverse Type: Brushless, Brushed, No Rev, Rev Delay

I guess that delay would do the trick?!

Any feedback would be highly appreciated
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Old 01-05-2008, 08:58 AM   #119
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that refers to reverse lockout which is different then the speedo loosing track of the rotor and causing stuttering.
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Old 01-05-2008, 10:02 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by TRF415boy View Post
Once again someone who is confused with brushless technology.

The actual sensored motors are nearly all Wye wound. However the recent opening of the EFRA rules have allowed some manufacturers to release some Delta wound motors.

Delta is a little better for sensorless as it provides a slightly better feedback (back EMF) to the speedo. However both types of winding are independant of the type of control, any speedo an drive a Delta wound motor, or a Wye wound motor (provided if the speedo is sensor based, that the motor has some sensors it can plug into).
Woops, I managed to swap delta and wye in my posts. I do that a lot. I'll go back and edit my posts to reflect my forgetfulness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry_S
One disadvantage of sensorless control is as JevUK has said..

"You catch a corner on an indoor track and your car is rolling backwards, your senorless system will just cough and splutter for what feels like an age before it's heading back in the right direction. How frigin anoying..."

That's the problem (amongst others) with sensorless control, with sensored control this wouldn't happen. It might not be too much of a problem for bashing and fun driving but when you're racing it's a big disadvantage, it's something to be avoided at all costs!
I don't race much, however my RCs are put in this situation a lot. At least with the Mamba Max ESCs I use (and have been using, I was a beta tester for them), the cogging while rolling backwards with forward throttle has been nonexistant. The ESCs always brakes, and at a certain point will drive forward, without any hint of abnormal cogging.

But with the Tekin ESC, I have no idea if this is an issue. Anybody know if it is?
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