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Old 12-20-2007, 07:56 AM   #46
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When I read someone posting SWTour, get out of the '90's... He's probably done more progressive things in oval racing than anyone has. Please take that into consideration.

To me, the time thing is sensitive. While I do believe there's a wish out there for longer races, at the same time, that lengthens the day. Sometimes dramatically. I think while a 20 minute heat may attract some, it'll turn away others. Catch 22. Time isn't the answer.

I'd personally like to see some consistency. I'd like the NiMh battery thing to settle down. I'd like to see some rules to brushless. We're asking it to be used in a spec situation, where there really are no established specs. While I'm regularly accused of being anti-LiPo, I'm not- again, give us a spec. I'm scared that people that are currently on the progressive end of LiPo will be stuck with something they cannot run. It's like we're putting the cart before the horse, if that makes sense.
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Old 12-20-2007, 08:03 AM   #47
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Just to get the #[email protected]%@#$%@# permit in order to start building my track
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Old 12-20-2007, 08:38 AM   #48
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oval racing for the most part is 4 mins. qualifying and mains. I'm sure there are places where its 5 mins but the majority is 4. on-road is 5, 6 or 8 depending on the class. off-road has various qualifier lengths.. (locally at my facility all off-road is 6 mins, qual and mains) most places that run long mains have standardized qualifiers to be 5 mins (yes gas classes also), So you can run those long mains. I believe the future will hold similar to be true for any type of racing that wants more race time. qualifying will be 4 or 5 mins and the mains will be progressively longer depending on seeding. Lipo will allow this far more easily.

personally i'd like to see 10th pan (and 12th!) come back as an enduro type of racing with a current crop of bodies ala ALMS or Grand-Am for Prototypes (with rules on minimum canopy volume similar to the Global Body Spec for touring), and toss in the thread of trans-am style bodies as a GT class. Mix everyone up in qualifying (5 mins). all sportsman groups run together, novice separately. seed mains with an even mix of cars based on the amount of people that can safely fit on the drivers stand and you have your a-main. Something like 30 min A-mains. slightly shorter for the others and novice separately. (if an off-road pro truck can do 20 mins, i'm sure adrian will chime in that a pan car could get 30 using the motor range at the bottom of this post)
biggest thing is figuring out a common sense rule to keep people from running lite in the quals and heavy in the mains without needing 2 more batts. (or running lite in the mains and trying to pull off a bunch of quick battery swapping pit stops. -dont need it quite like f1- i know the oval guys had a quick change battery setup back in the day. i dont want it to be a necessity to need a pit crew to be competitive.) motors would be all brushless. ranging from 23.5? novice to 17.5 GTP1 (12th) and 13.5 GTP2 (10th). trying to keep it close on top speed between between the weights of a 12th and 10th, while allowing the experienced guys (12th) to scoot through traffic using the corner speed and pick up. batts... revise min weight requirement down while not causing people to swiss cheese older chassis.

all this could be doable in a couple of hours on a parking lot at your local mall, etc.

but hey, none of this might not make any sense to anyone else.

off-road. electric guys are moving towards gas style events as well.. as seen at the jconcepts clash race. quals 5 mins, mains need to extend to 20 mins. (should be easy with 6k mah. i only have to back the screws out a turn or two on my b4 to fit it in. I can get roughly 15 mins on a 4.5BL in my sprint car, high bite. a slight battery retention mod for trucks as done at the off-road nats this year to slap 8k mah in. We know its reality. People want more track time but we dont have to add it by factors.)

Lets Race.
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Old 12-20-2007, 10:20 AM   #49
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duckman,

Your a funny guy... Get OUT of the 90's? Too funny... I keep hearing guys want to compare how BAD things are now, and THEY refer to how GOOD things were... Well, IMHO if you want things how they WERE then SOMEBODY needs to be looking at what was being done RIGHT back then.

As far as myself...

I'm involved with both On-Road and Oval on a club level, plus I direct/promote a travelling OVAL series.

The oval series introduced Brushless Racing into oval for the first time on the WEST COAST last season, and we ran 2 classes of Brushless in '07 mixing in LIPO batteries.

In 2008 we will be 99% BRUSHLESS LIPO across the board. (You can't say that's 90's)

I've also done something a lot of OUTSIDERS don't like. I've created our rules to allow only a SINGLE MFG. of Motor and Battery.

Why? [Because there are so many products going in so many directions w/o caring about RACERS...just $$$, where I'm abour RACERS and Quality of the RACE/SHOW)

MULTI Products don't make for GOOD RACING - DRIVERS who can compete against each other w/o the fear of being outspend, and outperformed by unobtainable products DOES make for poor racing at times however.

My feelings, leave the ONE OFF/PROTOTYPE equipment for the SNOWBIRDS or the IIC or a NATIONALS in the Upper Level classes. Let them be Showcased at those types of events...NOT small club, series, or local races.

again duckman - some people get on the computer and TALK about what SHOULD be done... Myself, I work very hard at trying to get NEW racers into this hobby/sport. I work hard at providing places for racers to come and have FUN...and we are ALWAYS looking at ideas for CHANGE and/or adding excitement.

My biggest obsticle - GUYS who don't take well to CHANGE, and NEGATIVITY.
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Old 12-20-2007, 10:33 AM   #50
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Quote:
i know the oval guys had a quick change battery setup back in the day. i dont want it to be a necessity to need a pit crew to be competitive
Mason,

A few years ago, a fellow race/series director (Goes by PCDAWG) use to run a oval series that did LAP racing instead of TIME based racing. His races also had a 'mandatory' pit stop.

If I remember correctly, the PIT STOP would be set for a certain lap into the race...and ALL cars had to pit at the same time.

Once the last car came off the track - a count down clock started, and they had 2 or 3 minutes to make their pit stops. The cars would reline up in the order the completed their stops (If I remember correctly) and once ALL the cars were finished, the race resumed. (If they were all finished before the time ran out - the race restarted early. I believe those NOT ready when time ran out were 'out of the race' )

This was a great change up in normal race formats, and the guys that participated loved it.

(Sorry Duckman - another OLD referrence) Mason mentioned OVAL cars having a 'quick change' battery setup...these were really cool, especially at some of the old BIG races at WHIPPORWILL and on the VELODROMES...but there were also On-Road cars that had quick change battery trays, and we use to run ENDUROS on the On-Road tracks.

The other thing we've done is just HAVE a LONG RACE Enduro w/o PITSTOPS.

We were able to run 20 - 25 minute enduros with the 1/10th scale pan cars on the On-Road tracks with 1700 mah batteries. With todays 4600's, or LIPOS you should be able to EASILY run 30+ minute Enduros occasionaly.

It's really fun to see who can come up with combinations that can get a LOT of run time....what's more fun is when you actually have 4=5 cars that end up really close and are RACING FOR THE WIN after 30+ minutes.
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Old 12-20-2007, 10:37 AM   #51
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When I read someone posting SWTour, get out of the '90's... He's probably done more progressive things in oval racing than anyone has. Please take that into consideration.
Todd - THANK YOU!
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Old 12-20-2007, 11:13 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by SWTour View Post

We were able to run 20 - 25 minute enduros with the 1/10th scale pan cars on the On-Road tracks with 1700 mah batteries. With todays 4600's, or LIPOS you should be able to EASILY run 30+ minute Enduros occasionaly.

It's really fun to see who can come up with combinations that can get a LOT of run time....what's more fun is when you actually have 4=5 cars that end up really close and are RACING FOR THE WIN after 30+ minutes.
EXACTLY!!!!! It would be really fun to see close racing after an extended time to see who is on top. Many more stratagies will fall into play such as motor gearing and how hard you drive your car for the 1st half of the race.
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Old 12-20-2007, 11:27 AM   #53
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What I am looking foward to the most in 2008 is...getting back into RC racing! Will be looking for a decent 1/10th electric soon, sold most my equipment a while back, have to start all over again basically.
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Old 12-20-2007, 11:30 AM   #54
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EXACTLY!!!!! It would be really fun to see close racing after an extended time to see who is on top. Many more stratagies will fall into play such as motor gearing and how hard you drive your car for the 1st half of the race.
In fairness we had this in 12th scale years ago. Gear to run six minutes, drive it to make eight. Push someone at the start to go out and dump at the end. That was fun. My only concern nowadays... Getting guys to run 8 minutes wasn't a problem. When I think of a raceday with all 20 minute mains, sounds like a lot. I know it's done already, but seems like a looooooong time to wait. With the "instant gratification" and lack of patience in today's world, I feel as though there's a point where it can go "too far", if that makes sense....

BTW: Welcome, Joe!
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Old 12-20-2007, 12:02 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by ToddFalkowski View Post
In fairness we had this in 12th scale years ago. Gear to run six minutes, drive it to make eight. Push someone at the start to go out and dump at the end. That was fun. My only concern nowadays... Getting guys to run 8 minutes wasn't a problem. When I think of a raceday with all 20 minute mains, sounds like a lot. I know it's done already, but seems like a looooooong time to wait. With the "instant gratification" and lack of patience in today's world, I feel as though there's a point where it can go "too far", if that makes sense....

BTW: Welcome, Joe!
It's not battery or motor consumption that we should be worried about... its the tire-wear / tire heat management that I am refering to with regards to stratagies. The new technology will make reaching extended length races not a power problem, its the mental focus and tire management that is going to separate the top racers from the rest of the crop.

What I love about 1/12 racing is that even if you make a bobble or two, you still have 7 other minutes to make it up. The racers are more relaxed knowing that there is still time. In 1/10 is balls-to-the-walls right out of the gate which only leads to hacking and people overdriving their cars.
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Old 12-20-2007, 12:18 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by duckman996
What I love about 1/12 racing is that even if you make a bobble or two, you still have 7 other minutes to make it up.
Not if you have Todd behind you, if that is the case you are racing balls to the wall the whole race trying to catch him.

I don't agree with longer races. Sure it would be great for that once in awhile race, but I don't want to deal with it on a weekly basis.
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Old 12-20-2007, 04:35 PM   #57
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saddle pack lipo (hard case from Orion) and 8 minute races
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Old 12-20-2007, 07:00 PM   #58
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Not if you have Todd behind you, if that is the case you are racing balls to the wall the whole race trying to catch him.

I don't agree with longer races. Sure it would be great for that once in awhile race, but I don't want to deal with it on a weekly basis.
Thanks Andy

Actually, "Duckman", I was making one of those "old-school" references from back in the '80's, when I personally had the best time racing 12th scale. You can make it about whatever you want. If it's "tire management" as you call it, are you racing 12th scale with rubber tires? I mean, after ten minutes or so the car may get a little slick from losing tire compound, but that's minimal. I've run over ten minutes with a full modified, and haven't lost enough to consider it a strategic endeavor. Unless you're just that bad fast that you can put a heat-cycle through a set of foams, I'm not sure it's feasible.

I see where you're coming from, but not sure it's even possible to the extent you wish to see it. Maybe rubber treaded 12th scale tires? Would look cool....
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Old 12-20-2007, 08:12 PM   #59
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*A WISH!!!* That manufactures actually work together and help grow this hobby outside our community. As a Marketing Professional, I have to say that this hobby does a TERRIBLE job in promoting itself outside of the people that already know about it. IMO, ROAR should be responsible in promoting RC to grow awareness and exposure to bring in new racers. There are so many ways to do this without costing a fortune it's not even funny.
I like this part... perhaps we should un-niche the RC market and reach out / promote the hobby.

Effort from the governing agencies (eg. ROAR, IFMAR) and manufacturers to standardise motors, batteries etc.

Returning of the 1/12th pan cars, Direct drive Formula 1 / Indy / Le-Mans chassis will be welcomed in 2008.
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Old 12-20-2007, 09:47 PM   #60
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Thanks Andy

Actually, "Duckman", I was making one of those "old-school" references from back in the '80's, when I personally had the best time racing 12th scale. You can make it about whatever you want. If it's "tire management" as you call it, are you racing 12th scale with rubber tires? I mean, after ten minutes or so the car may get a little slick from losing tire compound, but that's minimal. I've run over ten minutes with a full modified, and haven't lost enough to consider it a strategic endeavor. Unless you're just that bad fast that you can put a heat-cycle through a set of foams, I'm not sure it's feasible.

I see where you're coming from, but not sure it's even possible to the extent you wish to see it. Maybe rubber treaded 12th scale tires? Would look cool....

I was refering to rubber-tires in TC for tire management.... however, depending on how soft you run your foams I guess it could be an issue as well (re: ride height changing through the race but it would be so small it shouldn't be an issue)??
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