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Old 12-16-2007, 10:15 AM   #1
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Default To tech or not to tech, Thats is the question

Ok racers. Since the honor system does'nt seem to work.(meaning, If there were no tech inspection, Can you imagine what would be run) At the larger races, In your opinions what should be and what should not be teched at the upper levels? Not at your every weekend local races.

And if you had a say, Would certain cars and or drivers be checked more closely than others? I.E. Pros held to a higher standard than sportsman racers or should everyone be expected to know and abide by all rules even if they aren't trying to sell kits on monday? After all, At most races the rules are posted beforehand and mention made about what will be checked.

There's always talk in the pits about so and so did this or somebody did that and tech didn't catch it so here's your chance.

Know of something that you'd like checked or a rule you would like enforced more strictly or explained better? Lets hear it, I.E. Seems meaningless to enforce a ride heighth rule on asphalt but it's very important on carpet. For the tracks sake.

It seems like at every big race, Some racers are pushing the rules, Some instances are not heard about by the general racing public but word(possibly rumors)gets around to the organizers, with the internet that word gets out much faster now than in the old days when it used to take months for the magazine articles to circulate. What? 200 mm wide bodies and cars are not leagal at an electric race? Don't laugh, It's been tried.

Lets see some constructive criticism or comments please. No bashing or flaming,


Let the fun begin

Allthough it looks as if I'm asking what to do, In reallity I know just a tad bit more than I'll let on about these little cars we all enjoy so much.

Amazingly, Some people do actually ask what is being teched on their cars and why, Even if it is a big race with published rules and a long history
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Last edited by David Butts; 12-17-2007 at 07:29 PM. Reason: Clarification
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Old 12-16-2007, 11:16 AM   #2
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I quit racing "spec" just because Tech inspection was not working ...

You can buy a motor under the counter , only to be blow away by a Motor tuner who has hand pick the best motor`s & battery`s just to gain the edge ...

Spec is suppose to be equal speed , but it is`nt anymore ....

Mod is now the true spec class !

Today the driver`s in Mod make the difference , not the equipment....
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Old 12-16-2007, 11:25 AM   #3
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This should be interesting
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Old 12-16-2007, 05:19 PM   #4
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Butts I'd always tech your car. The honor system work good most of the time at local tracks. At Regionals and Nationals you have your guide lines (if they use ROAR rules). Now if it's not a santioned race you've got a problem as there are no set rules to fall back on.You've got the promoter who might bend a rule or two if it's not a santioned race.Or the promoter who does not have the rules listed or posted or has a bad day makes a decision it in the spur of the moment . If they do this who do you have to blame but yourself .You choose to go to the race and you should have been aware of what some of the rules might be? That's my 2 cents.
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Old 12-16-2007, 05:29 PM   #5
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This thread is useless without examples. If you know someone cheated, name the driver and race. If you can't do that, this is a moot thread.
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Old 12-16-2007, 06:01 PM   #6
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For ROAR events, typically, the dimensions of the car and the minimum weight along with a legal motor check in the stock and 19 turn classes is done. The top three in the stock and 19 turn classes used to get their motors torn down to check for compliance, but tracks have been lazy in that regard for quite a few years now.

Many other events typically simply state "ROAR rules apply" and leave everybody on the honor system. I would imagine the people running those events probably don't know the ROAR rules to tech them anyway.
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Old 12-17-2007, 08:02 PM   #7
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Default Been there done that

Ok guys, I changed my original post, After rereading it several times, It looked like I was asking my questions in the wrong way.

I really didn't try to make it sound like I wanted to know ways people bend the rules. I've seen most of them over my almost 30 years in r/c racing.

It was honest questions that just weren't asked correctly.


I had my grubby little hands on every car that ran every heat and main during onroad at the Snowbirds this past February and I saw, Wide cars, Light cars, Low cars and tall cars, Big cars and small cars, Short cars and long cars, Cars with the wrong motors and cars with no motors.(hmm, Wonder why it is so light?), Cars with huge by huge wings and cars that were smoking. Some cars with owners that said, Are you joking? And some with owners whom I couldn't understand a word they were saying.

And it all lead me to this question, Why? Why does there have to be tech?


Now it's time for me to go start saving up some sleep, Da'birds are closer than you think
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Old 12-18-2007, 12:14 PM   #8
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Why tech? Like you said, racers will try to get around the rules, misunderstand the rules, ignore the rules, or simply not know the rules and thus try lots of "interesting" things to get an advantage. I say, if there's a rule, tech it. If there's a rule and it's not going to be checked, why have it?

With that in mind, those who are writing the rules must come up with viable ways of accurately and quickly checking for violations. For an engineer, a great design means nothing if it can't be built. For rules, great rules (and great intentions) mean nothing if they can't be enforced.

And like you said, for club racing, the honor system works well enough or only checking a couple key points works fine.
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Old 12-18-2007, 01:58 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by maverickalpha View Post
Why tech?
And like you said, for club racing, the honor system works well enough or only checking a couple key points works fine.
The stuff that has happened at our local club meets would make a conscientious techy slit his wrists.
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Old 12-18-2007, 02:37 PM   #10
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I have had the honor of being the Tech Inspector for several (what some considered) big races. Many notable drivers attended.

The sanctioning body laid out the rules... with inspection boxes, to check height, width, lengths and ground clearances. Keeping measuring devices (including scales) nearby. Everyone was tekked. I soon became an observer more than an inspector! The drivers themselve ran their cars through the boxes, I checked the motors for obvious rules infractions. ...

Weight issues were the biggest problem. There was one car with $3.25 worth of quarters "goo'd into it. As it was the Marshalls got paid!

The drivers did have some pretty good explanations on some "gray areas" but these were soon ironed out.

Drivers do and will tech themselves. Everyone had a good night of racing and many drivers stated they were glad that all the cars were inspected.

I guess the reason for Tech Inspections is this. With Local Racers running against Sponsored - Big Named Drivers and Motor Tuners. They are assured they are on level playing field with the big boys.

In an effort to get drivers back to the track to Marshall immediately after their race. The local track has an impound area behind the Track Announcers stand. This "impound area" has a another benefit, as the cars can be (ARE) checked for infractions. Not only by the track staff, but by other drivers. Granted this is only a quick look see by staff, but the drivers tear it down with their eyes and questions. But it works!

Last edited by Hick; 12-18-2007 at 04:06 PM.
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Old 12-18-2007, 03:20 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cherry View Post
I quit racing "spec" just because Tech inspection was not working ...

You can buy a motor under the counter , only to be blow away by a Motor tuner who has hand pick the best motor`s & battery`s just to gain the edge ...

Spec is suppose to be equal speed , but it is`nt anymore ....

Mod is now the true spec class !

Today the driver`s in Mod make the difference , not the equipment....
???????

IMO in a true "Spec" class everything is mandated to one specific battery, motor, chassis, body and tires. Spec racing takes the equipment out of the equation and puts the race in the "Drivers" hands and his ability to "tune" his car.

With "spec" racing there is a lot that can be done to the basic car/motor to make them faster and better handling. And its all legal. It just proves that the winning driver can set up his car, tuning his motor and is a better driver than the one who quits/complains.

As long as the "spec" equipment conforms to the rules then there is not anything a Tech Inspector can do!

If a fellow has an option to choose any motor or battery then what is the spec? If given this ability to choose, why would anyone complain about another fellow's choices as long as everyone has the same options!

Anything else is just racing.
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Old 12-18-2007, 03:49 PM   #12
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At large races all cars should be tech inspected. At local races that is up to the director's discretion. At our local race I know certain people are not running legal motors but right now our race is still new and I am trying to keep it in the "Fun" stage to keep everyone coming. So far those who are bending/breaking the rules are not getting any advantage out of it so I have not been overly strict on it. As the race becomes a more serious venue I'm sure I will have to start a tech inspection but at this point everyone is still enjoying themselves as things are. And when you get right down to it that is what this hobby is all about.
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Old 12-18-2007, 04:27 PM   #13
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take nascar for example...they have more rules than anyone...i think...

and every week sopmeone breaks a rule! they run for money so every edge can gain them thousands of dollars and camera time on tv if they run up front..it all falls back to money for them...


r/c racers find rules as a challenge....you make a rule they figure out how to find the gray area.


in the past the snowbirds had a huge problem with armatures being drilled and balanced...mike had to come up with epoxy

in the past guys were removing the crappy magnets in the cans and replacing them with alot better magnets...this happened up until last year...mike had to buy a gauss meter

the birds they would advance the timming on the handout motors...mike had to buy a one off timming gauge just for the birds.....

one year IB came out with a new improved cell just in time for the birds....mike had to put a rule in place for batteries


jaco had 2 stage foams

this year in open mod at least in oval you will see one off brushless motors with rotors and custom winds.....


every year it is something new



you have rules in place to make it appear from the outside that every racer has a fair and level playing field ...that is each racer feels tech inspection will keep the cheating down and the racing close...i'm not going to pay 900.00 plus to attend a race with out tech......even with tech things slip by..and next year you make new rules and buy new gadgets to catch cheaters.
hell some guys just go old scholl and put 19 turn arms in stock cans and hope for the best.....


95% of the guys who cheat never win and usualy do not make the A mains...kinda sad realy...

now the other 5% stretch the rules a whole lot but do it to keep up with guys that they know are doing the same thing.

i think the magnets being removed from the ultra bird motors in 4 cell 19 turn in 2006 realy sucked...i didn't find out about it until 2007.........last year 4 cell 19 turn was a whole lot closer..with lap times allot closer together than years past.

usualy you will have a race team figure out a gray area and exploit it all weekend long..than hear about it months later. you won't stop it 100% but in order to draw a crowd you need to appear you have it under control with a good tech dept.


and understand that a local guy who is cheating every week and not being teched can destroy your local club scene in a hurry...you have to have red lights and stop signs....such is life
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Old 12-18-2007, 05:36 PM   #14
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Ditto on MF.

One thing that really needs to be understood, is definition of cheating. These are good examples of taking the unfair advantage. It happens and will continue to happen.

I find that people who cry "foul", do so because they have been out cheated. When in fact they have really been out classed.

They "p and m" about so-in-so! Hence, the demand for Tech Inspections.

As an example:

A Trinity Legends Spec Motor, the new "rebuildable" one. Simply by truing and centering the comm, aligning the brushes, add the right amount of spring tension, changing from stock brushes to the "S" type and proper break in will garner about 1000+ more rpm! $3.00 and time spent. Is this cheating?

If a driver doesn't make the "A" doesn't mean that those that did cheated! But you would think so, with the people who quit (usually the ones that "p&m"). I would say this is the problem that R/C is having.

People expect "instant gratification" without doing the work for it!

Last edited by Hick; 12-18-2007 at 05:59 PM.
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Old 12-18-2007, 06:15 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hick View Post
As an example:

A Trinity Legends Spec Motor, the new "rebuildable" one. Simply by truing and centering the comm, aligning the brushes, add the right amount of spring tension, changing from stock brushes to the "S" type and proper break in will garner about 1000+ more rpm! $3.00 and time spent. Is this cheating?
This is exactly why we went with Mabuchi Sport Tuned motors in our series. The track is small enough to where the lap times between a regular stock and a Mabuchi Sport Tuned is not much. Unfortunately the Mabuchi Sport Tuned motors have not been holding up in TC very well. I've seen my racers burn up 2 motors in 1 day and that is with conservative gearing.
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