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Old 12-15-2007, 09:09 PM   #91
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what i meant by "we" in the question was organizations and racers,espesially it was aimed at "roar"
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Old 12-15-2007, 09:13 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Anthony.L View Post
Lipo is not the holy grail. It's biggest limitation in my eyes is the 3.7v per cell. This makes it very hard to be adopted in 1/12, 4-cell racing in Japan, and 5 cell racing in Europe.
.........just thinking out loud..........would a 1/12 car with 3.7volts with a light weigh (lipo) pack and a hot brushless motor be just as fast as a 4 cell brushed motor 1/12?
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Old 12-15-2007, 09:15 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by miller tyme View Post
Brushless, Li-Po, what will you guys want next cruise control.

.
.......the europeans already have it..................it's called 5 cell.....
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Old 12-15-2007, 09:20 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by SWTour View Post
I know I heard that up in Nor-Cal some guys were testing w/ 1/12th scale and single cell lipo voltage (3.7) using the Low wind B/L motors (ie:3.5's) and I had heard a 3.5 on single lipo ran about like a 19t/4 cell.

This would be a very viable option for 1/12th scale.
..and think how cheap single cell packs will be when they are mainstream...........
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Old 12-15-2007, 09:27 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by UN4RACING View Post
Sorry.
But maybe the answer lies in this very debate. Why are some guys running Sub-c????????
Simple they think they have an edge. And they can afford an edge.
If they could not afford it they would be running lipo with the other lipo guys.
I think the Q is why would we not want Sub-c? Who cares except maybe some one who thinks they they have an edge and feeling its un fair.
If you got it can afford Sub-c and like the regiment of running them so be it.

Skill level dosent' start till you throw in a mod motor.
Sorry couldn't resist.

Go fast and try not to crash.
Those that do choose to run sub-c's are for the most part more competitive, we tend to buy the best equipment on the market, cars, tires, bodies, motors and batteries and along with that, also the best pit equipment.

Racing is not cheap, never has been and never will be and that is where the hobby is divided, play toys or race cars.

Change is continuous, and with lipo and brushless in a development stage, the serious racer will sit back and wait to see what the standards will become.
It makes no sense to dump all that equipment involved in maintaining brushed motors and sub-c batts when whatever equipment you replace those with may become obsolete when rules are finally established by IFMAR and ROAR.

And as for the increase of 4200's to 4600's, the voltage increases with every step up and thats why we buy them.
Just consider them consumables along with everything else that wears out in racing.
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Old 12-15-2007, 10:40 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by C_O_jones View Post
Those that do choose to run sub-c's are for the most part more competitive, we tend to buy the best equipment on the market, cars, tires, bodies, motors and batteries and along with that, also the best pit equipment.

Racing is not cheap, never has been and never will be and that is where the hobby is divided, play toys or race cars.

Change is continuous, and with lipo and brushless in a development stage, the serious racer will sit back and wait to see what the standards will become.
It makes no sense to dump all that equipment involved in maintaining brushed motors and sub-c batts when whatever equipment you replace those with may become obsolete when rules are finally established by IFMAR and ROAR.

And as for the increase of 4200's to 4600's, the voltage increases with every step up and thats why we buy them.
Just consider them consumables along with everything else that wears out in racing.
Thats pretty enlightening C_O_jones. Its good to hear a straight forward side of why any one would stick with sub-c's. Simple and sweet.
The key is competitive. Though we all are its how much are you willing to be.
I have a friend. A privateer racer, a graduate to the study and practice of stock racing. Hes a wizard at the black magic of the class.
A gold mine of info to RC racing. Hes a flipping mobile factory and hes not even got one sponsor. You name it, hes got it. If it even hints advantage hes got it. We all know how crucial the battery is in stock racing.
And he has told me almost to the T exactly the same reason. He even mentioned he wont convert till he has to.
This guy nurtures his packs like a baby.
I don't agree with all of his reasons none the less I still have respect for his reasons. He wants to be the fastest stock racer on the planet. Its his goal.
I have seen him cast spells on 27t motors that would put a counter 19t to shame.
And I have under studied him close up. And I say to my self some times. Why with all this new technology (lipos and brushless). His packs are always fresh and he has never spared any expense.
Even if the rules change I think he would hold out.
His sub-c's make a lipo look like a hearing aid battery.

As for myself I will just throw in a faster motor and be done with the effort.
As for the battery I will just run lipo and have less to care for, the regiment is work for me. Not a passion.

I'm going with.........
1. The rules are not defined yet.
2. The competitive edge, until lipo can prove itself faster.
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Old 12-15-2007, 11:38 PM   #97
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Why the single cell debat Tylor?

Yes you can make a 3.7V battery and stupid fast 3.5T brushless behave like a 19T brushed, but you just killed several classes. No more mod racing, no more stock it would pretty much be 19T speeds and Spec speeds.

I posted it before, moving to a Two Cell 3.3V LifePO4 battery pack would be a better compromise for all classes. It would nearly equate a 5-Cell NiMh pack that Europe has moved to. 1:12 and 1:10 4-Cell oval will just be a little faster with the current brushed motor selection but with brushless the change to a slowe wind can be made easy. Look at Novak's line up 21.5, 18.5, 17.5, 14.5 10.5 8.5, 6.5, 5.5, 4.5, 3.5 just pick any of those motors and it will work well with a 6.6V battery pack. If you try racing with a single 3.7V lipo pretty much you are limited to the 8.5 and greater if you want at least the same speed as a stocker.

The question should not be "why are we still using Sub-C?" the question should be why are we still using NiMH and NiCD? Its chemisty not form-factors. From what I have learned about Li-Ion technology, it appears the that if you want higher Mah you get Higher Voltages: 3.6~3.9V (Li-Ion generic) cells. If you want higher current there is a compromise on voltage and mAh: 1.5V (LiFeS2), 2.4V (LiFe???) and 3.3V (LiFePO4). The only cell type that is not tied up with patents is the LiFePO4, the others are just too new and barely heard of.
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Old 12-16-2007, 01:59 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trackpower View Post
.....in stock and 19 i always have a min or 2 after 5 min race to spare.so if races stay at 5 min why ask for 4200 and 4600.
what u gonna tell me?they want more speed?no we dont frakin want more speed that comes from extra 0.1 voltage or extra 400 mah.
if racers who race stock wants more speed,they can go to 19 turn,if its not fast enough go to mod.
we did not ask for that,battery matching companies are,u said it**we push our manufacturer**.....
Wow...that is some serious flawed thinking. First, why are your races lasting a mere 5 minutes? How about 6, 8 or even 10? Second, what makes you think 100% of the consideration is for the racer only with developing higher capacity cells? Compare how many batteries are sold to the bashers and LHS compared to racing. You think all the world wants to stand still as technology passes them by? Third, how about the voltage curve and drop. You really want to race with that "last 2 minutes" of crap for power left? 4th, people want to go faster (in racing) to win or improve their status...not to just "go faster" to go faster by moving to 19T or mod.

Believe it or not, there ARE reliable 4200, 4500, and 4600 sub C cells available that don't blow like blue bombs.
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Old 12-16-2007, 02:47 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by bvoltz View Post
I completely agree with you... Once these events allow LiPo, then it will be interesting....
most of those events will be allowing some form of lipo/brushless in the next year.Simply put it what the racers want.

Most of those events follow roar rules as a guideline but in the end make thier own rules that make sense for thier event.
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Old 12-16-2007, 04:22 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Danny/SMC View Post
We do offer a chepaer matched pack it's called our Economy pack and it retails at 75.00 instead of 105.00 for our Race packs.
Only $75 for your economy battery back?!?

WOW thats such a great deal!! Yah right.

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Old 12-16-2007, 06:09 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by 403forbidden View Post
Only $75 for your economy battery back?!?

WOW thats such a great deal!! Yah right.


I assume that is "List " price not "Street" price that we all pay. If that is street price it would be about the same we paid five years ago
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Old 12-16-2007, 07:47 AM   #102
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You also can't forget that when lipo's are legalized, racers are going to want longer races. That means two things, your going to want multiple packs to maximize runtime, and your going to want to know what the average voltage is over discharge time, so you can run that hotter motor and still make runtime and have higher voltage towards the end of the longer races.

The battery wars are comming, only now the starting price for lipo's is twice as much.
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Old 12-16-2007, 07:52 AM   #103
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On the lipo issue and having multiple batteries - that is/was a concern I had...and by limiting to just one type/mfg. the tolerences in testing did vary...but compared to what we had to do to use/maintain and cycle the NiMh batteries - testing and racing the LIPOS has been so simple, the batteries have been durable...and we've had guys run 'THE SAME PACK' as many as 10 times in a single day - including 3 quals and a main...plus ALL their practice runs... FIND ME a racer comfortable with doing this and NOT losing performance in a NIMH.
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Old 12-16-2007, 10:04 AM   #104
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Lipos offer many advantages, but there are some less obvious downsides.

There have been at least 5 lipo failures at our track in a little over 2 months. All of them were user error. 2 cells were accidentally charged with NiMh settings and swelled up, 2 cells were ruined when they were left plugged in (not sure if the cars were 'on' or not) and one lipo caused the chasis of a touring car to burn becuase the terminals made contact with the top plate. (The lipo itself did not catch fire, but the short ignited the top plate and it was still quite spectacular)

True - All the failures were caused by the racers and not the lipos, but they are the kind of mistakes that can only happen when your using an extremly unforgiving battery technology and installing it in vehicles not originally designed for them and using chargers that if used with the wrong setting will cook them. I suspect there are many, many more failures just like those, but most guys are too embarrassed to admit how they ruined a $150 battery.

I still use lipos myself and like them but I'm beginning to wonder if they will ever live up to the hype thats being created about them.
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Old 12-16-2007, 10:39 AM   #105
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One of the biggest drawback`s to buying a Nk-Ml pack today is how long will it last ....

I`v seen pack`s bad right out of the box, sometimes I`v seen these new pack`s even die after a week use...

Not very many happy Nk-Ml customer`s compared to those who switched over to the Li-Po...
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