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Old 12-26-2007, 08:28 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by trackpower View Post
i am french not american,i was joking with my 1/2 french friend,the slayer,so take a chill pill and go talk to phill he will fix u up.
i bet u,u proud of ur answer to the question,hey u sum it all in one sentence.
lol,we all know what the rules are,the question was not meant like that!!
to get that kind of answer,it was meant for the whole hobby as generall,and to roar and the other organizations leaders in spesific.
u know its somthing to chat about when u have some time on ur hand.
if that was some one else i would have said its lack of intillegence or being shallow,but coming from u i cant say that.
in another thread some one asked"how do i calculate roll out?".and u gave him 3/4 of a page scientific answer.so do the same here
please dont mind my spelling,i am doing the best i can.i am a frensh basterd
Hey trackpower--sorry I wasn't "in" on the joke. I was afraid it was just another boorish "patriot" teeing up on someone they perceived was from "not here".

I can't get too scientific re: why or why not adopt LiPo. I've had LiPo batteries for planes and copters for a couple years so it's not that I'm innately frightened of them. I just see a couple problems for implementing them in racing cars and am not sorry (nor surprised) to see that they aren't being implemented faster. I DO believe that we'll be seeing ROAR acceptance sooner rather than later, in fact I'd bet we'll see at least limited acceptance in the 2009 Rule Book.



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Originally Posted by billjacobs View Post
So, I have a follow up question. If you were talking to a newbie, what battery would you recommend to them? ---> and if it is a LIPO, what is stopping you from switching?
That's a question with more than one answer Bill. If they were a newbie here they would HAVE to use NiMH, but I'd get them set up with inexpensive charging/maintenance equipment that is being sold for fire-sale prices online as others go to LiPo. We made a decision as a club at the start of our racing year (Sept) to stick with NiMH in all classes and brushed motors in spec classes REGARDLESS any subsequent ROAR approval for this season. We also are committed to running the same spec for our '08-09 season because we also voted to implement a 1 year "warning" prior to a major shift in technology. What will happen is that we'll kind of take the pulse of racing regionally and nationally next September, whether LiPo and/or spec brushless has been accepted or looks like it will be accepted for 2009, etc and vote on the matter for our club. Everybody has a vote so no one's opinion is left out. If we vote to accept either technology we will issue a notice that they would be accepted for one year later...the 2009-2010 season. This will minimize the impact against the many of us who have large investments in incumbent technology and maximize the timeframe for budgeting to replace. If the new tech's are accepted sooner elsewhere then those of us who travel to race will have to "step-up" a little faster. Right now the only difference within a 500+ mile range of us is that the Denver guys race 105 brushless with their 19T class. When I raced with them in Nov. I was able to borrow a motor to go with the 4-cell GTB I already own (we've, like ROAR, had brushless allowed in Mod for 3 seasons now).

BUT this is all a decision we made here that I think will work very well for us.

For someone else, it depends what your "beginning" class is. It also depends what your classes are.

Incorporating LiPo for sedans is, I think, pretty much fait accompli and will really be a pretty painless transition. The only thing I think we'll ultimately regret is the lack of ability to "adjust" voltage in comparatively fine increments (ala the 5-cell argument, with which I agree). Done deal.

1/12 on the otherhand is going to be a BIG problem and regardless how it is handled I can't see anything really other than pretty much all existing chassis being obsoleted. THAT'S a BIG hit...whether you own one "full-race" chassis or a half-dozen like I do.

The GOOD that CAN come from the change, though, I had an 8-hour chat a week ago Sun eve with Brian "SlapMaster" Bodine as we were driving home from a race. He makes many VERY good points, and I hope he developes the rationale a bit further. His primary point was that at the same time we adopt alternate cells (which will have to be 7.4v LiPo vs the 4.8v NiMH we use now) is the same time to break away from this (now obsolete) marriage we have to the .05-size motor can and go to smaller motors as we now see in the "mini/micro" classes. There was a LONG discussion about this and we brought up and answered a number of issues. The key will be to make both changes at once so we only have to have ONE revolution, not two. We will lose racers with the change. There will be racers who had been considering quitting and this will be their excuse, there will be others who can't afford a completely new kit. What will need to happen there is much like what we are doing with our club...create a transition year or two where "Mod" becomes the new spec and "Stock" remains the old, then everything is new.

Ah, but opinions are like belly-buttons. We've all got 'em. I respect well thought-out opinions, not so much the ones from those impetuous parties who jumped at change and are now frustrated everyone hasn't "jumped" with them. Right now if you jump you have to accept you're going to be running two specs in some (many?) cases.
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Old 12-26-2007, 08:32 PM   #302
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I knew something was off, no american racer can be this rude and arrogant. So, trackpower, are there any french r/c cars, or would they spend all day in the shop with shock oil leaks and smoking motors?

Good to see this thread has become somewhat civilized and nice, and I am glad to see that many nimh racers are recommending lipo's to others.

So, I have a follow up question. If you were talking to a newbie, what battery would you recommend to them? ---> and if it is a LIPO, what is stopping you from switching?
no comment
i will be the better man,my appologies to the thread readers,almost all of rc racers are very nice people,we can forgive those 1 or 2 bad apples
right billjasscob?
scottrik
thx for that reply
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Old 12-26-2007, 11:54 PM   #303
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I usually take my senior nap at "noone" but Tom and I still run brushed!
Are you two the only hold outs? I guess it goes to show you how equal the class can be.

I also almost read you statement wrong. I thought it said you took you senior nap with Tom
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Old 12-27-2007, 12:24 AM   #304
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Are you two the only hold outs? I guess it goes to show you how equal the class can be.

I also almost read you statement wrong. I thought it said you took you senior nap with Tom
Nah, not my type

Just making fun of your spelin'
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Old 12-27-2007, 12:31 AM   #305
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Scottrik,

That's a good post for a couple of reasons. First, it's helpful to be reminded that what we take for granted in Seattle: adoption of new technology is good, isn't necessarily viewed in the same light everywhere else. It isn't always good, or at least it isn't always without negative consequences along with the good. It seems your community of racers has managed to maintain a measured approach to these changes without turning people off of the sport. And while it frankly astounds me that your group could go through 2009 without adopting a brushless class and/or switching to lipos, I guess that's how it is.

That said, your post also illustrates a classic case of an "upmarket retreat" in the face of a disruptive innovation. The ironic, or at leat counterintuitive phenomena associated with disruptive innovations, is that growth accompanies those who force their customers to change. It seems like accommodating installed technologies while incrementally accepting innovation is wise, but you inevitably wind up serving an ever decreasing share of the available market. And it's profitable--for awhile--because the 80/20 rule applies and that last twenty percent pay the most, but then they go too, and you're left with a model that's outmoded and you haven't developed the methods necessary for attracting new users. In this case racers. You mention the old racers with capital investments in old tech, but what do you tell new enthusiasts? I guess you said it, "Buy this old crap from these old guys and wait for the change." Is that a model for growth?

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Old 12-27-2007, 01:54 AM   #306
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"Why are we still running sub-c cells?"

There was a shortage of christmas crackers this year apparently... and they just dont make them with the same bang these days

Seriously though, some people prefer the punch of nimh. Others prefer the size/shape so they can move it around the chassis easier for good weight distribution.

That said, Lipo is good, dont get me wrong. But everyone won't convert overnight.
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Old 12-27-2007, 07:01 AM   #307
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Scottrik, good post. Like in everything else, it seems that no matter what you do, some will like it, and some won't.

I don't agree with the point that newbie's can save money by buying used nimh items, so nimh is good for r/c and the cost for those newbie's to enter racing is low. Many newbie's don't know about rctech and buy things at the hobby shop, or based on ads in r/c car action, etc. For them, the cost to compete in nimh racing is much higher (charger, discharge device, tray, multiple packs, etc.) The same goes for brushed in terms of multiple motors, comm lathe, etc. One of the things about r/c is that newbies very quickly want the items that the established racers have, whether it's chassis, radios, chargers, etc. So even if a newbie doesn't have the latest and greatest, most will get them after a short time. Even though many claim that the downturn in r/c is mostly cost related, I am not sure if I agree, because I see many newbie's who sink a considerable amount of money into r/c and supporting equipment.

In our area, most tracks allow lipo, but few racers use them. This is mainly because most of those that race are already established racers and have all of the nimh equipment. Add to that the need to ballast the car, and that in ballasted lipo vs nimh, nimh wins, LIPO for them has no real advantages.

I like your club's idea of the 1 year postponement of new technology, and that you vote on things, but it seems that in not being proactive more, you are placating the existing club members, versus trying to get new ones.

Putawaywest -> good post and observations.

trakpower -> so, when someone is rude to you, you are insulted, but when you do it to someone else, it's just a joke. ok.
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Old 12-27-2007, 09:01 AM   #308
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Hey Scottrik, I think what you and Brian decided about 1/12th could be exactly the same reason why the 1/10th pan class has died. Check out Bob Stormers rant about the death of 1/10th in WCIC, he is dead on, way too much power with what is out there right now. If you don't scale back the speed in 1/12th with the brushless/lipo tech, not only with the total new upgrade of chassis tech, the thing will just be totally undriveable.

Why is it always lighter, faster? Racing is racing whether its r/c cars or turtles or cokroaches. Keep the weight break as it is, whether you have to come up to it, or try to get down to it, who cares? One weight, let them chose the technology.

The thing I don't get is why the Lipo supporters don't get the suppliers to come up with a outer case that is the same as the current NiMh side by side cell configuration? It would be way cheaper to change the shape of the egg than trying to rebuild the chicken, or what I mean is, why obsolete so many current chassis just because your trying to put a brick configuration into a round hole. You have to buy the new battery anyways, just get one that fits, if we could ever get the Lipo manufactureres to agree on a fixed design.

My proposal is for the Lipo manufacturers to come up with either a 4 or 6 cell configuration outer case, since the make up of the Lipo can be manipulated to many configurations, the hard case , with the hollow indentations at the bottom could be used as places to put the extra weight that they would have to run to make weight, or could be removed, or moved to where ever they want the weight shifted to. Plain, simple cost effecteive, I think Rick Howart is working on something like it already.

On a personal note, hope you get well soon Scottrik.
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Old 12-27-2007, 10:48 AM   #309
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JohnnyWishbone,

I think some people ARe looking at some of the smaller LIPO cells, and possibly looking into being able to do a SPLIT CELL type of configuration.

The problem I've seen with this is you can get some VERY Small Lipos, but they have a lot lower Mah and "C" rating. Although, mixed with a SMALLER B/L motor (say a 380 vs a 540) they would probably make a interesting combo.

NOVAK has their smaller 'sensored' B/L Motor and ESC...wonder how that would couple into a 1/12th scale car with one of the smaller LIPO setups.

MAN will it be LIGHT!
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Old 12-27-2007, 11:51 AM   #310
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Great post Todd. I did have to get a couple of cups of coffee in me before I could properly absorb the market analysis.

In the Seattle and Portland area we definately have taken the technology advancement for granted. Most local track owners have adopted a free market approach to running lipo and brushless. If enough people have decided to invest in the newer tech then the track owners create a new class to accomodate them. This has especially worked well for the 13.5 class as most of the people running this have advanced from the silver can ranks.

As a side note I did have the pleasure of seeing Mr. Bodine run his brushless/Lipo 1/12th scale experiment. That thing was wicked fast. Pretty much everyone stopped what they were doing just to watch.
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Old 12-27-2007, 09:48 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by PutAwayWet View Post
Scottrik,

That's a good post for a couple of reasons. First, it's helpful to be reminded that what we take for granted in Seattle: adoption of new technology is good, isn't necessarily viewed in the same light everywhere else. It isn't always good, or at least it isn't always without negative consequences along with the good. It seems your community of racers has managed to maintain a measured approach to these changes without turning people off of the sport. And while it frankly astounds me that your group could go through 2009 without adopting a brushless class and/or switching to lipos, I guess that's how it is.

That said, your post also illustrates a classic case of an "upmarket retreat" in the face of a disruptive innovation. The ironic, or at leat counterintuitive phenomena associated with disruptive innovations, is that growth accompanies those who force their customers to change. It seems like accommodating installed technologies while incrementally accepting innovation is wise, but you inevitably wind up serving an ever decreasing share of the available market. And it's profitable--for awhile--because the 80/20 rule applies and that last twenty percent pay the most, but then they go too, and you're left with a model that's outmoded and you haven't developed the methods necessary for attracting new users. In this case racers. You mention the old racers with capital investments in old tech, but what do you tell new enthusiasts? I guess you said it, "Buy this old crap from these old guys and wait for the change." Is that a model for growth?

Todd M.
Seattle Indoor Raceway
Hey Todd,

I follow what you're saying, but have a couple points for you to ponder.

1) This is a VERY small market compared to the Seattle Metro market. Our market area is something just over 100K people, probably about the size of Kent plus Renton. That said, we HAVE experienced more growth THIS year than the last three combined. That growth has been 100% spurred by interest in our Vintage TA class which EMPHASIZES old equipment, old tech. In fact this class will be the last hold-out for brushed tech and NiMH cells LONG (or as long as we can get batteries) after our spec classes have changed over which, as I said, won't be until a season after the ROAR rules allow the change.

The Vintage TA class has been attractive SPECIFICALLY because it has a VERY low cost of entry and a "success ballast" scheme that absolutely dis-incents spending money to go faster. I have put together a couple ready-to-race packages with car, painted Vintage body tires and wheels, batteries, charger and power supply, and Spektrum DX 3 or 3.0 radio. Anybody can buy this package for $400 and race that very day with it in a car I know for fact I could qualify top 5 with. That's about what a current TC chassis kit sells for. I don't make a dime for my time and effort assembling these packages or for "flooring" them, but I don't have to. MY pay-off is attracting a new racer and making it darn easy for 'em. From there it's just parts that get broken, and with the reduced speeds of 4-cell racing combined with out very forgiving barriers there is VERY little breakage.

The coolest thing is that we already have three of these new guys who have now bought 1/12 cars and are going to run that as well. These are BOON days indeed for a small club like ours.

2) One of the reasons this works for us is that we are a 100% independent club...we don't have a hobby store/facility we need to keep in business. That gives us a LOT of freedom that programs like SIR will never have. We can (and do) direct people to where great deals on used equipment are and get 'em set up. I don't begrudge a brick-and-mortar hobby shop a single nickel of what they sell...it's why they get to be. Our way of things would be different if it were what our paradigm was. But it ain't so we can get away with buying up brushed equip and sub-C maintenance equip for pennies on the dollar

3) Regardless what you believe, I'm telling you that RC in Seattle isn't growing...it's shrinking and has been for a few years. Ask Doug. Ask anybody who's been racing there 5 or more years. I've been gone for almost 3 years but I've been following developments from afar. I will offer that ONE of the reasons for that shrinkage is the increasingly small classes as new technologies are embraced OR people who genuinely believe they are at a disadvantage not running the new tech but forced to race against it. Something to think about is that with about 20 active racers our per-capita participation rate is MANY times greater than in the metro Seattle-Tacoma area.

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Originally Posted by billjacobs View Post
I don't agree with the point that newbie's can save money by buying used nimh items, so nimh is good for r/c and the cost for those newbie's to enter racing is low. Many newbie's don't know about rctech and buy things at the hobby shop, or based on ads in r/c car action, etc. For them, the cost to compete in nimh racing is much higher (charger, discharge device, tray, multiple packs, etc.) The same goes for brushed in terms of multiple motors, comm lathe, etc. One of the things about r/c is that newbies very quickly want the items that the established racers have, whether it's chassis, radios, chargers, etc. So even if a newbie doesn't have the latest and greatest, most will get them after a short time. Even though many claim that the downturn in r/c is mostly cost related, I am not sure if I agree, because I see many newbie's who sink a considerable amount of money into r/c and supporting equipment.

In our area, most tracks allow lipo, but few racers use them. This is mainly because most of those that race are already established racers and have all of the nimh equipment. Add to that the need to ballast the car, and that in ballasted lipo vs nimh, nimh wins, LIPO for them has no real advantages.

I like your club's idea of the 1 year postponement of new technology, and that you vote on things, but it seems that in not being proactive more, you are placating the existing club members, versus trying to get new ones.
Bill,

I think the above answers most of the concerns you raise. Regardless what you believe we ARE growing and are experiencing our best year yet. The fact of the matter is you MUST placate the existing members. A sweeping change in short order would be disastrous. Period. Without the existing members the program dies without an opportunity to find new...we absolutely depend on them to cover the rent, set up and tear down the track on race days, etc. One of these "established" members said it best..."I can buy a LOT of brushes for $250" which is what it would cost for a brushless esc and motor. I can't argue with that. He's absolutely right for him and many others like him. As it is I absolutely KNOW that even when we give the 1 year notice next September (or the September after, or...) that we will have a couple (few?) guys who will race the one more season and we'll never see them again.

The other thing that folks find hard to accept is that a big part of racing to a lot of people has been the motor tuning. I tire of it very quickly but I can very much appreciate that there are a number of people out there (some of whom I race against) who have developed very good motor programs. That's not at all unlike REAL racing where millions are spent every year STILL developing a fundamentally 50 year old engine in NASCAR.

Finally...do you know how many people have come to us and said "you know what, I'd like to participate but will wait until you support brushless and/or LiPo". Yup. Zero. Guess how many of our new members are participating specifically because they could buy high-end brushed esc's for $50-60, excellent chargers for the same? Yup. All of 'em. But as I said before, that's the advantage of being a club vs a commercial venture.
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