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Old 12-24-2007, 11:28 PM   #256
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I think the push toward new technology has to be looked at from the point of what will bring in new racers. Long time racers have their preference and want to stay with them, but the sad state of on-road electric racing across the country (not everywhere, but most places,) implies that something is wrong.

If a racer wants to work on motors and babysit batteries, that is their perogative, but just as they don't want the bl and lipo "fans" to make them change, they shouldn't be imposing their want for brushed and nimh onto the bl and lipo "fans." Nobody sucks because they don't want to rebuild motors. Different racers have different reasons for racing, and as long as those racers turn out and race, none of their reasons is better than another.

I think an important point is to look at why brushed racers want to stay with brushed. If it is tradition, or simply not wanting to change because someone else tells them they must, or other reasons that have nothing to do with actual racing and enjoyment, but come from stubborness, that will only hurt the hobby.
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Old 12-24-2007, 11:35 PM   #257
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C_O Jones,

I am mostly an OVAL racer at heart, but I also promote local racing which includes on-road with both Touring and 1/12th scale. (Or at least we're hoping to bring the 1/12th scale back to life)

The biggest reason I stay involved with On-Road Forums is in the past the things we aimed at OVAL ... found their way into On-Road and Off-Road because they were GOOD ideas (even though when we were working on them - those racing venues were not on our minds... I try to make sure they ARE on our minds now...because the more things that have cross marketing abilities.. the bigger voice RACERS have with MFG's. (For instance the 17.5 B/L motor...I tested it not only for LIPO use on Oval, but also with 4 cell applications...and On-Road use as well, both for 1/12th scale/4 cell AND 6 cell TOURING. My feelings are that if that motor has a MARKET in those places... it can/will create MORE motor sales..and we have a much better chance of getting it built for OUR needs. (The guys who have played with it in the TOURING cars like it...as a "Sportsman Stock" type more ENTRY LEVEL speed class.)
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Old 12-24-2007, 11:37 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by billjacobs View Post
If a racer wants to work on motors and babysit batteries, that is their perogative, but just as they don't want the bl and lipo "fans" to make them change, they shouldn't be imposing their want for brushed and nimh onto the bl and lipo "fans." Nobody sucks because they don't want to rebuild motors. Different racers have different reasons for racing, and as long as those racers turn out and race, none of their reasons is better than another.
Amen
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Old 12-24-2007, 11:56 PM   #259
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C_O Jones,

I am mostly an OVAL racer at heart, but I also promote local racing which includes on-road with both Touring and 1/12th scale. (Or at least we're hoping to bring the 1/12th scale back to life)

The biggest reason I stay involved with On-Road Forums is in the past the things we aimed at OVAL ... found their way into On-Road and Off-Road because they were GOOD ideas (even though when we were working on them - those racing venues were not on our minds... I try to make sure they ARE on our minds now...because the more things that have cross marketing abilities.. the bigger voice RACERS have with MFG's. (For instance the 17.5 B/L motor...I tested it not only for LIPO use on Oval, but also with 4 cell applications...and On-Road use as well, both for 1/12th scale/4 cell AND 6 cell TOURING. My feelings are that if that motor has a MARKET in those places... it can/will create MORE motor sales..and we have a much better chance of getting it built for OUR needs. (The guys who have played with it in the TOURING cars like it...as a "Sportsman Stock" type more ENTRY LEVEL speed class.)
Haven't noticed the on and off road parts in you posts. Hopefully I did not offend you, and apologize if I did.

Picked this up from a reliable source on another thread:
"Just to give you some info. ROAR competition committee is looking at making a 17.5 brushless motor the stock equivalent. So that might make it possable to mix the brushed and brushless motors in a single class."

That would settle my big concern about BL being in the stock class, the 13.5 never belonged in stock and has done great harm to stock racing locally.
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Old 12-25-2007, 12:18 AM   #260
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Anyone can run brushless and lipo's. It takes a few select to run them and still be fast. I raced against the one who started this thread with a brushed stock motor and 3800 Nmhi and beat him by a full lap if not more. To me, brushless is for the lazy. Anyone can run a brushless and lipo set up and get faster, it takes the few select to run a brushed motor and standard sub C's and still be fast. OK, if you want to run them during club races, FINE! I understand the cost of mantaining your motors and batts, but for trophy races, let the men be men! Show your motor tuning skills and lay it down, thats my two cents! Cesser d'être paresseux et de régler certains stocks de moteurs. Cycle packs et certains viennent me montrer ce que tu as! Mieux encore, courir et tourner à l'étape 19, il monté d'un cran!
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Old 12-25-2007, 12:19 AM   #261
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our local track is going to run the 13.5 as pro stock in place of the 19t. it will be run with 27t motors allowed to run bearings. as most of the top guys were putting down similar times in 19t and 27t.

traditional stock will be for entry level racers with the faster guys not allowed to compete in that class
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Old 12-25-2007, 12:24 AM   #262
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also my sub-c's are faster than a li-po
I tried both. But i love my li-po in my basher.
just my opinion
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Old 12-25-2007, 05:10 AM   #263
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Cesser d'être paresseux et de régler certains stocks de moteurs. Cycle packs et certains viennent me montrer ce que tu as! Mieux encore, courir et tourner à l'étape 19, il monté d'un cran!
That doesn"t make any sense
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Old 12-25-2007, 07:56 AM   #264
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Anyone can run brushless and lipo's. It takes a few select to run them and still be fast. I raced against the one who started this thread with a brushed stock motor and 3800 Nmhi and beat him by a full lap if not more. To me, brushless is for the lazy. Anyone can run a brushless and lipo set up and get faster, it takes the few select to run a brushed motor and standard sub C's and still be fast. OK, if you want to run them during club races, FINE! I understand the cost of mantaining your motors and batts, but for trophy races, let the men be men! Show your motor tuning skills and lay it down, thats my two cents! Cesser d'être paresseux et de régler certains stocks de moteurs. Cycle packs et certains viennent me montrer ce que tu as! Mieux encore, courir et tourner à l'étape 19, il monté d'un cran!
Well I have ran brushed and sub C's for 24 years. I now run brushless and lipo because it is cheaper for me, I can take less equipment with me and I have more time to setup my car.

As for lapping someone with brushless and lipo well hell I can do that and have done that. Has zero to do with motor setup skills and all about car setup and driving.

I'm not sure how you figure a person is less of a man because he used his brains to save money and still go fast.
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Old 12-25-2007, 08:03 AM   #265
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our local track is going to run the 13.5 as pro stock in place of the 19t. it will be run with 27t motors allowed to run bearings. as most of the top guys were putting down similar times in 19t and 27t.

traditional stock will be for entry level racers with the faster guys not allowed to compete in that class
Your track is forcing new guys to run brushed, then?
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Old 12-25-2007, 09:30 AM   #266
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Anyone can run brushless and lipo's. It takes a few select to run them and still be fast. I raced against the one who started this thread with a brushed stock motor and 3800 Nmhi and beat him by a full lap if not more. To me, brushless is for the lazy. Anyone can run a brushless and lipo set up and get faster, it takes the few select to run a brushed motor and standard sub C's and still be fast. OK, if you want to run them during club races, FINE! I understand the cost of mantaining your motors and batts, but for trophy races, let the men be men! Show your motor tuning skills and lay it down, thats my two cents! Cesser d'être paresseux et de régler certains stocks de moteurs. Cycle packs et certains viennent me montrer ce que tu as! Mieux encore, courir et tourner à l'étape 19, il monté d'un cran!
So if I show up with a hand picked team motor & hand picked team battery`s,
I`m a better man ?


These hand pick special`s from the motor tuner`s has done more damage to stock than any battery or brushless motor....


At the least, the 13.5 helps restored some of the creditability to stock ...


And if spec racing is to have a future , the 17.5 brushless will be the most honest way towards fixing the "Team" equipment issues stock has been suffering from...

Don`t get up-set , I too feel hard work deserves a lot of credit, but if you can`t buy the same speed as the other guy whats the point to stock racing ?
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Old 12-25-2007, 10:36 AM   #267
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Default 13.5 and 17.5

From what I understand, the 13.5 is faster than 27t brushed, and the 17.5 is slower. Sure you can gear the 17.5 to the moon and make it fast, but that makes the motor run hotter and draw more amps. As has been mentioned and as I have seen, 19t and stock can run very similar lap times depending on the track. If that is the case, how does mandating a different brushless motor to run with stock change anything?

And, for all of those that complain that novak has the bl market and they want to run lrp, orion, etc, at this time, only novak has the 17.5.

The talk about fairness always comes from the brushed racers who think that brushless has an unfair edge (which in the 13.5 it does, although the edge gets smaller as the brushed racer is better.) But, handicapping a far superior technology to placate those that want to hold onto brushed for another year will not help.

If roar does make the 17.5 the stock equivalent, I guess all of those that bought the 13.5 will have to get the 17.5. That is another $80 people have to spend to run bl. I am not complaining about the $80, because I will spend it, but forcing bl racers to waste another $80 to compete with outdated and declining technology contradicts all of the brushed advocates whose main argument is to stay with brushed to save racers money.
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Old 12-25-2007, 11:10 AM   #268
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If roar does make the 17.5 the stock equivalent, I guess all of those that bought the 13.5 will have to get the 17.5. That is another $80 people have to spend to run bl. I am not complaining about the $80, because I will spend it, but forcing bl racers to waste another $80 to compete with outdated and declining technology contradicts all of the brushed advocates whose main argument is to stay with brushed to save racers money.
Exactly! 13.5 has already been established as the 27T equivelant by the manufacturers (since ROAR didnt), and I'd imagine that pre sintered rotors they were even closer then todays versions. So, people bought, and clubs (widely) accepted the "new 13.5 BL as standard for stock". Now because they're a bit faster rolling back to a slower motor would be a huge mistake. Many manufactures have come out with the 13.5 finally, to compete with Novak which is good for the RC consumer. Competition among them brings better and cheaper products to the consumer. 2-3 tenths difference as some accept as the difference, is just an incentive for someone to switch someday, but still close enough to compete and have the bragging rights if the brushed guy wins. Thats really not much more then a good to average body change gives when you think about it.

The biggest problem running combined into one class is length of race IMO. But I'm willing to run 6 mins. if there are brushed guys wanting to run, and I think most at SIR feel the same.
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Old 12-25-2007, 11:24 AM   #269
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So if I show up with a hand picked team motor & hand picked team battery`s,
I`m a better man ?
These hand pick special`s from the motor tuner`s has done more damage to stock than any battery or brushless motor....
I'm not saying you'de be a better man. What I was refering to is when you go to these races were hand out motors are givin to each driver, it becomes your resposability to make that motor fast. Everyone is givin the same based motor! I feel there is more of a good feeling in knowing that you had the same motor as the guy next to you in the begining of the day
and now your two laps ahead of him cause of your own hard work. Like I said, brushless for club racing is a good idea but when it comes to trophy races, build your own motor and see how good you did!
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Old 12-25-2007, 11:40 AM   #270
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Exactly! 13.5 has already been established as the 27T equivelant by the manufacturers (since ROAR didnt), and I'd imagine that pre sintered rotors they were even closer then todays versions. So, people bought, and clubs (widely) accepted the "new 13.5 BL as standard for stock". Now because they're a bit faster rolling back to a slower motor would be a huge mistake. Many manufactures have come out with the 13.5 finally, to compete with Novak which is good for the RC consumer. Competition among them brings better and cheaper products to the consumer. 2-3 tenths difference as some accept as the difference, is just an incentive for someone to switch someday, but still close enough to compete and have the bragging rights if the brushed guy wins. Thats really not much more then a good to average body change gives when you think about it.

The biggest problem running combined into one class is length of race IMO. But I'm willing to run 6 mins. if there are brushed guys wanting to run, and I think most at SIR feel the same.
Vern ,
In the past Roar has change the spec and made everyone buy new stock motor`s again.

It has always been like this .. ...


It is the same game we will see again...

They did it when they reinvented the class originally , they made everyone buy a stock with ROAR stamped on the can ..

Then, they kept upping the standard by increasing the timing , making everyone re buy more stock motor`s each year...

Roar continue to do did this until we got to over 40 degree timing and the motor`s would only last one or two runs...

Rebuildables stock finnally came along with reduce timing (re buy again) , after that new improved & faster stock motor`s from Trinity , Orion , ect. approved by Roar each year after .......


Enjoy these 17.5`s you will have to buy soon.. .....
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