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Old 12-24-2007, 04:27 PM   #241
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My posts are very seldom in response to a specific person, or a specific post. I was posting about the "change at your pace" argument, because that is precisely the issue. Change at your pace implies that the 2 technologies can be made virtually the same, and that while someone changes or until they change, they can run whatever they want. If that is true, give any good racer a 13.5 brushless car that is set up to their specs and see how much faster they get. Again, I don't care what anyone runs, I just get tired of people crying foul because new technology is better than what they run, and that is precisely the problem with the bl vs brushed debate now.

As for the brushless lasts forever argument, I have 2 13.5ss pro systems that I have had for about 6 months. I have at least 50 full runs on one, less on the other. I have never done any maintenance to the motors, and the only time they came out of the car was when I moved the system to a different car. For me, bl is as close to maintenance free as possible. So for me, all of the hype is true.

As for a bigger tool box, my toolbox contains 1 ps, 1 charger, 2 lipo batteries, a bunch of wrenches, and some spare parts including different springs. That's it. Those that want to find an edge will always be able to do so, but to make an argument against a technology because people will be able to find an edge is not fair.
I think the problem lies with the fact that 27T brushed motor is the "standard" stock motor as stated in the sanctioning bodies regulations. There is no bl equivalent in the rules...yet. So to say that it is unfair to run a current generation (13mm, sintered rotor) 13.5 bl with 27T brushed can be argued. The new R.O.A.R President seems to be pretty progressive so rules and regs will change. If the rules state that 13.5 bl (I am hoping for 17.5 with 13.5 repalcing 23T) is the new stock standard then those that run brushed will have a decision to make if they want to remain competitive. The governing bodies of racing will be forcing the choice not some yahoo on a bullentine board. The same holds true to a lesser extent for 19T. But if the rules come to state that all the bl manufacturers must come up with a definative 27T equivalent then brushed motors will be around for a while, and again it will be up to the individual racer to choose. Politics and money may swing the wording more like the latter than the former.
Inventive people wil find an edge in any new race technology. That is not an argument against new technology but a simple and inevitable fact of racing.
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Old 12-24-2007, 04:52 PM   #242
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I would suggest brushless will be used for many years to come not just 2.

IMO Lipo is not the future of RC cars as lithium based batteries are extremely dangerous when things go wrong. Once they light up on fire you cannot put them out until all the lithium has been burnt up.

Buildings have been burnt down due to lithium batteries, I have been using lipo for 4 years in my helis and planes to only have one battery go up in flames. This destroyed the plane, radio gear, motor and started a grass fire.

I have had Lipos swell up and be on the edge of explosion several times before I shut the charger off and did what ever I could to cool them down.

I have always taken the upmost care with Lipos and ulitmate performance was not the goal in my flight activities. I can just imagine what would happen in rc cars where ulitimate performance is the goal. I would expect to have a Lipo go up in flames at least every month and possibly costing thousands in damaged equipment due to a $150 battery.

I no longer use Lipo and I went back to Nimh in the RC air activities as well.

I have had a couple of Nimh cell die and I have only ever had one explode. There was a bang, horrible smell and some black mess. IMO this was nothing compared with problems caused by Lipo when things go wrong.

IMO what should happen is all classes bar novice/540 stick pack racing should go to 5 cell. But the weight of the car must remain the same.

This will reduce the need to use expensive light weight materials, reduce the expense of hop ups ie no need for titanium screw kits, carbon parts ect. This will also allow manufactures to beef up the drive train and make the cars stronger and result in less maintaince and less replacement parts. You will save money on hop ups, save money on batteries, and not need to buy new equipment, the end result will be that the hobby will be slightly cheaper.

Novice/540 could probably stay using a 6 cell stick pack.
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Old 12-24-2007, 05:05 PM   #243
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From what I have seen at local tracks 13.5 is the 27T equivilant.

A couple of experienced racers that have set up both the get the best performance have swapped set ups on the day to find 0.1sec per lap difference.

There are differences in the power curves and no some tracks there is an advantage to either technology but the difference is small and no different to having a better suited 27T to that track.

I certainly hope that 13.5 is the equivilant to 27T.
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Old 12-24-2007, 05:53 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by C_O_jones View Post
Verndog is still pretty new and needs all that extra time allowed by the BL/lipo to constantly replace broken car parts cause the 13.5 is just to darn fast for someone learning car control.
Thats where the brushed stock motors are needed, you can't just move from a silver can to a 19t class without breaking a lot of parts and a huge amount of frustration.
I second that
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Old 12-24-2007, 05:56 PM   #245
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13.5 is NOT equivalent to 27t in my opinion. I am always out-motored by cars with BL and I am not using a slow brushed motor by any means. I did an experiment and found that a 19 turn armature in a stock can is about the same as 13.5 BL.
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Old 12-24-2007, 06:02 PM   #246
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19T equivilant to 13.5...........

What size track, what motor, what condition is your motor in, what brushes, what springs.

How often do you cut the comm.

Guys here found that a fresh 27T was the same as 13.5. Cut the comm and replace brushes every run gives the same performance.

I guess the biggest difference/advantage is that a brushless maintains peak performance where a 27T doesn't.
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Old 12-24-2007, 06:30 PM   #247
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The BL proponents keep harping about how the brushed motor has reached its peak in performance, it may have come very close to that going by the ROAR and IFMAR rules, but if rules were opened up to allow different styles of coms and the big holdup, magnets, you could see an amazing increase in power and durability.

But the BL has no rules other than can size.

So why should only BL be allowed to advance while brushed motors are held back.
That is the real conspiracy!!!!!!!!
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Old 12-24-2007, 06:42 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by C_O_jones View Post
The BL proponents keep harping about how the brushed motor has reached its peak in performance, it may have come very close to that going by the ROAR and IFMAR rules, but if rules were opened up to allow different styles of coms and the big holdup, magnets, you could see an amazing increase in power and durability.

But the BL has no rules other than can size.

So why should only BL be allowed to advance while brushed motors are held back.
That is the real conspiracy!!!!!!!!
Cause they suck! Most people just dont have the time anymore to sit there and rebuild motors after a few runs...heck some guys in 19t have to do this after every other run...why deal with all that when you can run a BL system without the hassle and worries? More track time, run time, set-up time, less equipment...
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Old 12-24-2007, 06:49 PM   #249
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The last 2 pages have been intersting,we are switching from lipo-nimh thread to brushed-brushless,buts its all good arguments there.
i am all out for allowing lipo to run with nimh,with a wight limit revised rules,let the racers decide on their power source,and the better source should win.i think that should end the arguments there.
brushles vs brushed.....is a diffrent story.my opinion they should be in diffrent classes.
***as of now 13.5 is faster on average .3 sec on a medium size carpet track givin that all other variables is constant.(pls dont argue this,u have to be consistent driver,and give some time with the brushless to come up with the right gearings and car setup,and u will find that average .3 sec difference.
so its not fair to run them together in the same class.as this will result in the death sentence for the stock brushed.
now lets say companies are trying to come up with brushed equivalent,but is it an average stocker equivalent or the best stocker equivalent?
if they come up with the best best stock motor equivalent,then u are killing stock brushed since thre will be no incentive to tune motores and try to be faster.especially with the time needed to maintain them.
alot of people like to work on their own motors as part of the hobby,and to gain little edge by doing a good job,i see this as a good thing.and dont forget the money a lot of racers invested in brushed equipments(thousends).
so no need to take all this away from them.
i would like to run stock brushed in one class,and my 13.5 brushless in another class instead of running stock and 19 turn,like this i will save on maintenance time and money.
so the new comers as well as the present racers have a choice without fighting each other.
or what u guys think?
one more thing,what if they come up with a faster better stock brushed?is brushless gonna try to modifey their motors to match?its a difficuilt sitiuation
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Old 12-24-2007, 06:53 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by C_O_jones View Post
The BL proponents keep harping about how the brushed motor has reached its peak in performance, it may have come very close to that going by the ROAR and IFMAR rules, but if rules were opened up to allow different styles of coms and the big holdup, magnets, you could see an amazing increase in power and durability.

But the BL has no rules other than can size.

So why should only BL be allowed to advance while brushed motors are held back.
That is the real conspiracy!!!!!!!!
i definetly agree with u,the same thoughts here
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Old 12-24-2007, 06:55 PM   #251
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Cause they suck! Most people just dont have the time anymore to sit there and rebuild motors after a few runs...heck some guys in 19t have to do this after every other run...why deal with all that when you can run a BL system without the hassle and worries? More track time, run time, set-up time, less equipment...
i agree with u as well,just make it a seperate class and let the racers decide
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Old 12-24-2007, 07:00 PM   #252
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Problem is if you separate motor`s your only deluting the racing.

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Old 12-24-2007, 07:11 PM   #253
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The BL proponents keep harping about how the brushed motor has reached its peak in performance, it may have come very close to that going by the ROAR and IFMAR rules, but if rules were opened up to allow different styles of coms and the big holdup, magnets, you could see an amazing increase in power and durability.
Funny, I consider myself a HUGE proponent of BRUSHLESS, and never once have I ever uttered a word about BRUSHED MOTORS Reaching a PEAK in PERFORMANCE, nor do I feel they ever did.

Quite the contrary, my belief is that the rules were allowed to be strayed from, changing basic things in the construction of 'Old School' BRUSHED motors that rendered a lot of the older motors OBSOLETE and also allowed BRUSHED MOTORS to be able to move ahead.

I was also part of THAT push. I was a HUGE proponent in pushing for "REBUILDABLE" Stock Motors to allow racers the ability to TUNE their own motors w/o having to rely on TUNERS doing it for them. (Along with many other benefits) This push came after a season of several team mates having their TOP 5 motors torn down at EVERY race..which cost my co-racers a TON of MONEY that year.

I was also HUGELY behind the push for the 19t motors (This came from the old NORRCA "Expert Stock" classes being eliminated with the creation of the 24d Stock Rebuildable Motor, because NORRCA used the 36degree motor for the EXPERT STOCK classes.)

Equally to the push on those motor technologies, I'm strongly behind the push toward BRUSHLESS classes, and this only came about AFTER being involved with getting NOVAK to build some SLOWER motors more suitable toward AVERAGE/STOCK SPEED type drivers.

I fully believe OVAL racing will see some of its BEST racing EVER in 2008 with the 17.5/4cell classes (for those who will be staying with NiMh technology) and in the 21.5/LIPO class and the 17.5/LIPO class for those switching to LIPO.

Both of those motor combos are making for some very close racing, speeds are still very quick (by oval standards) yet the cars have been pretty easy to control (in part due to the lower Kv motors having LESS rip off the corners, yet still achieving fast top speeds.)

WHAT We proposed for the Brushed/Brushless deal is - ELIMINATE the BRUSHED CLASS as a separate class... Create the BRUSHLESS CLASS and ALLOW the BRUSHED MOTORS to compete IN that class (Same with the LIPO - IT becomes the RULE - and NiMh's are ALLOWED to join in...if they are at a DISADVANTAGE - people will step up...if they are NOT they will keep running them...if they are racing at a high enough level to care...)
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Old 12-24-2007, 10:56 PM   #254
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Funny, I consider myself a HUGE proponent of BRUSHLESS, and never once have I ever uttered a word about BRUSHED MOTORS Reaching a PEAK in PERFORMANCE, nor do I feel they ever did.

Quite the contrary, my belief is that the rules were allowed to be strayed from, changing basic things in the construction of 'Old School' BRUSHED motors that rendered a lot of the older motors OBSOLETE and also allowed BRUSHED MOTORS to be able to move ahead.

I was also part of THAT push. I was a HUGE proponent in pushing for "REBUILDABLE" Stock Motors to allow racers the ability to TUNE their own motors w/o having to rely on TUNERS doing it for them. (Along with many other benefits) This push came after a season of several team mates having their TOP 5 motors torn down at EVERY race..which cost my co-racers a TON of MONEY that year.

I was also HUGELY behind the push for the 19t motors (This came from the old NORRCA "Expert Stock" classes being eliminated with the creation of the 24d Stock Rebuildable Motor, because NORRCA used the 36degree motor for the EXPERT STOCK classes.)

Equally to the push on those motor technologies, I'm strongly behind the push toward BRUSHLESS classes, and this only came about AFTER being involved with getting NOVAK to build some SLOWER motors more suitable toward AVERAGE/STOCK SPEED type drivers.

I fully believe OVAL racing will see some of its BEST racing EVER in 2008 with the 17.5/4cell classes (for those who will be staying with NiMh technology) and in the 21.5/LIPO class and the 17.5/LIPO class for those switching to LIPO.

Both of those motor combos are making for some very close racing, speeds are still very quick (by oval standards) yet the cars have been pretty easy to control (in part due to the lower Kv motors having LESS rip off the corners, yet still achieving fast top speeds.)

WHAT We proposed for the Brushed/Brushless deal is - ELIMINATE the BRUSHED CLASS as a separate class... Create the BRUSHLESS CLASS and ALLOW the BRUSHED MOTORS to compete IN that class (Same with the LIPO - IT becomes the RULE - and NiMh's are ALLOWED to join in...if they are at a DISADVANTAGE - people will step up...if they are NOT they will keep running them...if they are racing at a high enough level to care...)
Prob not you, but many others.
You seem to be doing a lot for the oval crowd, which is good I think not being an oval racer, closest oval racing is about 70 miles N of Seattle and out of the way for most of us around here.

But oval and onroad are 2 completely different things altogether.
There is an oval forum and maybe your thoughts towards oval might be better posted there. Not trying to run you off, but from what I read from you, your posts are directed towards oval and not onroad.
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Old 12-24-2007, 11:05 PM   #255
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[QUOTE=yyhayyim;4004189Cause they suck! Most people just dont have the time anymore to sit there and rebuild motors after a few runs...heck some guys in 19t have to do this after every other run...why deal with all that when you can run a BL system without the hassle and worries? More track time, run time, set-up time, less equipment...[/QUOTE]

Maybe its you that sucks for not wanting to spend the time to improve on something anyone can buy over the counter.
Sounds like you run in a spec class with premounted tires, that saves a lot of time, bl motor and lipo battery, do you all run the same chassis and bodies?
Just dont have "time" to mess with all that preparation and maintinance stuff
Oh, and "most people" still "race" with brushed motors.
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