R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-24-2007, 11:39 AM   #226
Tech Master
 
Verndog's Avatar
R/C Tech Elite Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: PPDBillet.com USA
Posts: 1,845
Trader Rating: 16 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Impulse_racer View Post
Your Lipo/brushless pit box will get bigger.
Also are you so niave to believe a manufacturer is going to produce a motor that you buy once and it lasts forever so that you never have to go back to them for anything? No maintenance parts, no upgrades, no tweaks needed? Very bad business model. If that were true a brushless motor would be a lot more than $80.
You like to put words into mouths huh. I didn't say a BL would last forever...who wants it to, it will be obsolete within 2 years....but during that time there is a good chance I buy nothing for it, maybey 1 set of bearings, and all the time playing with motors is now mine back to use as I wish. You exagerate a point to make yours sound more realistic...not that simple. I'm only saying fewer of those things you say no to...they dont go away obviously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by C_O_jones View Post
Verndog is still pretty new and needs all that extra time allowed by the BL/lipo to constantly replace broken car parts cause the 13.5 is just to darn fast for someone learning car control.
Fred..actually I'm new to sedans but have been running BL over a year now. And in my first 4 months of racing and over 40 total races have only not finished 2 races from breaking. . My opinion is mostly that if you are going to spend the money getting into this hobby (at this time)..why spend the money on the old stuff. I see more advantages with the most recent technology. I haven't even switched to LiPo yet...still considering that now that there are better voltage packs hitting the market.
__________________
--->Dial-a-Grip for TC6
Kevin -- PPDBillet---TC6---Exoray 008
---Team Hoarders---

Last edited by Verndog; 12-24-2007 at 12:14 PM.
Verndog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2007, 11:48 AM   #227
Tech Elite
 
joe of loath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Bristol, England, United Kingdom
Posts: 4,857
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by yyhayyim View Post
now that's survival of the fittest...natural selection at its best!
yes, but my lipo's won't mysteriously cange back into 1200 nicad's!
__________________
HPI E-Firestorm - Tamiya TA05 racer (carbon chassis, 10.5 brushless etc) - LRP Blast S10 BX - Revo 2.5r truggy conversion (in progress)
joe of loath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2007, 11:55 AM   #228
Tech Elite
 
yyhayyim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Weston, FL
Posts: 3,424
Trader Rating: 26 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe of loath View Post
yes, but my lipo's won't mysteriously cange back into 1200 nicad's!
you're right..cause its not in their genetic code...their intelligent designer meant them to be lipo's...

lov you bro...good to find you here also
yyhayyim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2007, 11:56 AM   #229
Tech Legend
 
Wild Cherry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: TRCR Modified Driver
Posts: 22,595
Default First 1/12th race was in way back in 84

Quote:
Originally Posted by timmay70 View Post
It's just like you to shut out an entire segment of the hobby just so you can have your way. Smooth move. We need more people in the hobby just like you so that we can shut the whole thing down. 12th scale is the purest form of RC racing there is and you don't mind dumping it all in one fell swoop.
You saying that like its impossible to cut a
carbon 1/12th chassis to fit a Li-Po ....


1/12th & Li-po would only help build a old class that is dieing & desperately needs a make over ....
and
No way 1/12th is going to benefit staying Nk-Ml only if its to grow become more popular ...

So I`m saying keeping just Nk-Ml 1/12th is`nt really supporting the 1/12th class , it will only kill it ...:


You have a better suggestion ?

Lets here it ....
__________________
Any driver can copy a great set up, a Champion however will steal it .
If Jesus returned as a Rc car he be a Rc10 B5M
George W. Cherry
Wild Cherry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2007, 01:14 PM   #230
Tech Regular
 
Impulse_racer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Glen Allen, VA
Posts: 250
Trader Rating: 4 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verndog View Post
You like to put words into mouths huh. I didn't say a BL would last forever...who wants it to, it will be obsolete within 2 years....but during that time there is a good chance I buy nothing for it, maybey 1 set of bearings, and all the time playing with motors is now mine back to use as I wish. You exagerate a point to make yours sound more realistic...not that simple. I'm only saying fewer of those things you say no to...they dont go away obviously.
Not my words or exageration. It is the common theme/thought in the first bl vs brushed threads. The words "last forever with little or no maintenance" is repeated often. Look, I am not against lipos or brushless motors, they are the future. What I am against is the change or die attitiude of the "fans" of these technologies. They want no middle ground for those that like to tune brushed motors or those look at battery and motor maintenance as a part of the racing experience. They want to kill off without regard to entire sections of the hobby or to the racers that are invested in the current technologies. Change is the only constant, but racers should be allowed to change at their choice and not dictated to. When was the last time you liked it when someone said to you "Just do it because I said do it!!"
__________________
Xray T3 EU
KO Propo Helios
Tekin RS Pro/LRP X-12/Venom LiPo
Hudy
Litemodz CVS
Impulse_racer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2007, 01:25 PM   #231
Tech Champion
 
C_O_jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Wa.
Posts: 9,055
Trader Rating: 11 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Impulse_racer View Post
Not my words or exageration. It is the common theme/thought in the first bl vs brushed threads. The words "last forever with little or no maintenance" is repeated often. Look, I am not against lipos or brushless motors, they are the future. What I am against is the change or die attitiude of the "fans" of these technologies. They want no middle ground for those that like to tune brushed motors or those look at battery and motor maintenance as a part of the racing experience. They want to kill off without regard to entire sections of the hobby or to the racers that are invested in the current technologies. Change is the only constant, but racers should be allowed to change at their choice and not dictated to. When was the last time you liked it when someone said to you "Just do it because I said do it!!"
Well said,
but I'm afraid that your going to have a better argument with a wall!
__________________
Bacon is Meat Candy
C_O_jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2007, 02:05 PM   #232
Tech Master
 
billjacobs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Rockville, MD
Posts: 1,264
Trader Rating: 54 (100%+)
Default thoughts

impulse-racer: those that run brushless don't really care if you run brushed; the problem is that those that still run brushed complain that brushless is unfair. I am the first to admit that a 13.5 brushless is much faster than a stock motor, and has much more torque. You cannot look strictly at lap times because the lap times between stock, 19t and mod have been getting closer every year. If the 13.5bl and stock turn similar laps, and stock and 19t turn very close laps, does that mean they are all equivalent?

The problem with these debates is that they go both ways. The brushed guys complain that bl is unfair, but since the bl guys can't make their own motors, they run whichever "equivalent" motor is produced by the manufacturers.

You want a happy transition, so let me compare this to another change in engines: prop to jet. Can you find a jet engine that is "equivalent" to a prop engine? They are completely different technologies that do the same thing -> move a plane through the air.

Brushless will always have an advantage over brushed, no matter the "equivalency". Even if you can equate the watts produced, brushless creates power much more efficiently, keeping the batteries at the higher voltage of the discharge curve, and using much less battery capacity. Does anyone honestly think that brushless is not the future and brushed will win out? If the answer is no, then what is the point of keeping brushed viable? On road electric turnouts are so low, a change can only help grow the hobby, not hurt it.

The only points that brushed advocates make is that a quick transition to brushless will force more racers out of r/c than it will attract. My response is that racers in r/c do it for the hobby and competition. What equipment they use is at the bottom of the satisfaction list, and saying that racers who gladly spend $400 on a new chassis won't spend $250 on a brushless system is silly.

If you want to keep using brushed, go ahead, no one is stopping you, but stop complaining that brushless is unfair.
billjacobs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2007, 02:10 PM   #233
Tech Champion
 
JayBee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: 12TH-MAN COUNTRY
Posts: 6,813
Trader Rating: 31 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by billjacobs View Post
impulse-racer: those that run brushless don't really care if you run brushed; the problem is that those that still run brushed complain that brushless is unfair. I am the first to admit that a 13.5 brushless is much faster than a stock motor, and has much more torque. You cannot look strictly at lap times because the lap times between stock, 19t and mod have been getting closer every year. If the 13.5bl and stock turn similar laps, and stock and 19t turn very close laps, does that mean they are all equivalent?

The problem with these debates is that they go both ways. The brushed guys complain that bl is unfair, but since the bl guys can't make their own motors, they run whichever "equivalent" motor is produced by the manufacturers.

You want a happy transition, so let me compare this to another change in engines: turbo prop to jet. Can you find a jet engine that is "equivalent" to a prop engine? They are completely different technologies that do the same thing -> move a plane through the air.

Brushless will always have an advantage over brushed, no matter the "equivalency". Even if you can equate the watts produced, brushless creates power much more efficiently, keeping the batteries at the higher voltage of the discharge curve, and using much less battery capacity. Does anyone honestly think that brushless is not the future and brushed will win out? If the answer is no, then what is the point of keeping brushed viable?

The only points that brushed advocates make is that a quick transition to brushless will force more racers out of r/c than it will attract. My response is that racers in r/c do it for the hobby and competition. What equipment they use is at the bottom of the satisfaction list, and saying that racers who spend $400 on a new chassis won't spend $250 on a brushless system is silly.

If you want to keep using brushed, go ahead, no one is stopping you, but stop complaining that brushless is unfair.
This is the best post I've seen on the subject in a long time....great job!!
__________________
R C 3 G R A F I X _ F U S I O N . G R A P H I X _ S E A T T L E - R/C - R A C E R S _ E M E R A L D C I T Y R C . C O M

A E - 12R5.2 _ S M - REV8 PRO
JayBee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2007, 02:33 PM   #234
Tech Master
 
Verndog's Avatar
R/C Tech Elite Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: PPDBillet.com USA
Posts: 1,845
Trader Rating: 16 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Impulse_racer View Post
Not my words or exageration. It is the common theme/thought in the first bl vs brushed threads. The words "last forever with little or no maintenance" is repeated often. Look, I am not against lipos or brushless motors, they are the future. What I am against is the change or die attitiude of the "fans" of these technologies. They want no middle ground for those that like to tune brushed motors or those look at battery and motor maintenance as a part of the racing experience. They want to kill off without regard to entire sections of the hobby or to the racers that are invested in the current technologies. Change is the only constant, but racers should be allowed to change at their choice and not dictated to. When was the last time you liked it when someone said to you "Just do it because I said do it!!"
OK then...I do agree with you. I believe forcing the issue will cost the tracks racers, and an art will be lost. I can appreciate the knowledge gained and pride the seasoned racers have tuning and building their own motors. There still is a place for those guys, and to force them is totally wrong. Thats not happening at SIR, they let either / or run together, and just need to determine the length of the race depending on how many 19T. Some guys are changing some are not...most people are cool with that. And yes...there do need to be some regs. on BL...I'd imagine they are well on their way.
__________________
--->Dial-a-Grip for TC6
Kevin -- PPDBillet---TC6---Exoray 008
---Team Hoarders---
Verndog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2007, 02:39 PM   #235
Tech Master
 
billjacobs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Rockville, MD
Posts: 1,264
Trader Rating: 54 (100%+)
Default thoughts on lipo

Just as the bl vs brushed argument involves 2 different technologies, the lipo vs nimh argument also involves different technologies but in a different way. In bl vs brushed, the difference and argument is about power. In lipo vs nimh, the difference is about weight.

In general terms, less overall weight means faster acceleration and deceleration, and more corner speed, which means a faster car. Those that run Nimh say that you can simply add weight to a car to reach a minimum point and then all is good. One of the cars I have is the losi jrxs-r. The car rtr with an lrp sphere comp, novak 13.5 brushless, orion 3200 lipo, and rubber tires weighs 47.5 ounces. Included in the 47.5 ounces is 1 ounce of balancing weight in the front of the car to reach a perfect 50/50 front to back and side to side balance. Those that run nimh say that this is unfair, which is true, and want me to add close to 7.5 ounces of weight to the car.

Advocates of nimh say that lipo proponents don't want to budge, and want everyone to change, but again there are 2 sides of the debate. Why is it that the new technologies always have to be handicapped to run with the old? Why not reset the weight rules lower by 3 or 4 ounces, to make it fair? (see below about why adding 7.5 ounces to a balanced car is unfair to the lipo car.)

So now, let's say that I add the weight. The question is where should I add it? A nimh battery distributes the weight vertically. Since a lipo pack and a nimh pack are almost the same dimensions, adding the weight to the top of the battery, or on the side of the battery messes up the vertical weight distribution of the car. Some tc racers have gone back to nimh from lipo because tacking on weight messed up the cars handling (which you expect since the car wasn't designed to have the weight where you have to add it.) Adding 7.5 ounces to a balanced car makes the car less efficient, uses more tires, breaks more parts in crashes, and reduces run time.

With all of the recent hubub about nimh cells and packs, who thinks that nimh is the future of power in r/c? So why are racers fighting so hard to hold onto it? If you want to attract more racers to r/c, you need to attract new racers. The existing racers will race with whatever the rules mandate, but I find it hard to believe that any sizeable percentage of racers like baby sitting nimh batteries and spending more and more money on them.

I think the best thing in r/c to attract new racers is brushless and lipo because the racers can focus on the driving part of r/c, and less on the maintenance part of r/c, which with today's smaller amount of spare time, and ever increasing time pressures is perfect. AND, I didn't even mention the fact that bl and lipo are considerably cheaper in the long run.

Last edited by billjacobs; 12-24-2007 at 03:15 PM.
billjacobs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2007, 02:55 PM   #236
Tech Master
 
billjacobs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Rockville, MD
Posts: 1,264
Trader Rating: 54 (100%+)
Default verndog

verndog: I also have an appreciation for racers who are good motor tuners, but my appreciation ends there. The basic parts of motor tuning involve time, money, and knowledge, with an emphasis on time because unlike the old days, the knowledge is available (you still have to work for the money.)

I don't think you will lose many racers because of brushless because from what I see, turnout is up when brushless is allowed. I also see many long time racers happily accept brushless and lipo because they allow them to have more fun.

I wish that there were 3 times the number of racers as there are now because that would let you run different classes (brushed + nimh, bl + lipo, bl + nimh.) Unfortunately, racer numbers have been declining the last 5 years, and more of the same, including a delayed transition to new, better, technologies, will not turn things around quickly.
billjacobs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2007, 03:28 PM   #237
Tech Regular
 
Impulse_racer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Glen Allen, VA
Posts: 250
Trader Rating: 4 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by billjacobs View Post
impulse-racer: those that run brushless don't really care if you run brushed; the problem is that those that still run brushed complain that brushless is unfair. I am the first to admit that a 13.5 brushless is much faster than a stock motor, and has much more torque. You cannot look strictly at lap times because the lap times between stock, 19t and mod have been getting closer every year. If the 13.5bl and stock turn similar laps, and stock and 19t turn very close laps, does that mean they are all equivalent?

The problem with these debates is that they go both ways. The brushed guys complain that bl is unfair, but since the bl guys can't make their own motors, they run whichever "equivalent" motor is produced by the manufacturers.

You want a happy transition, so let me compare this to another change in engines: prop to jet. Can you find a jet engine that is "equivalent" to a prop engine? They are completely different technologies that do the same thing -> move a plane through the air.

Brushless will always have an advantage over brushed, no matter the "equivalency". Even if you can equate the watts produced, brushless creates power much more efficiently, keeping the batteries at the higher voltage of the discharge curve, and using much less battery capacity. Does anyone honestly think that brushless is not the future and brushed will win out? If the answer is no, then what is the point of keeping brushed viable? On road electric turnouts are so low, a change can only help grow the hobby, not hurt it.

The only points that brushed advocates make is that a quick transition to brushless will force more racers out of r/c than it will attract. My response is that racers in r/c do it for the hobby and competition. What equipment they use is at the bottom of the satisfaction list, and saying that racers who gladly spend $400 on a new chassis won't spend $250 on a brushless system is silly.

If you want to keep using brushed, go ahead, no one is stopping you, but stop complaining that brushless is unfair.
Show me in ANY of my posts that I said brushless or lipos were unfair. What I said for those that can't read the ENTIRE post is that the claims of "level playing field" and "buy and forget it" maintenance will not last long. But most of all that the lipo/brushless "fans" are trying to ram the technologies down the throat of all who will listen. Your "blinders on" perspective when reading my post proves just that. I do agree, as I also stated in my post, that lipo/brushless is the future but the individual racer should decide in his/her own time when and if to change. They should not made to feel they are killing the hobby and ending life as we know it because they have not hopped on the lipo/brushless bandwagon.
__________________
Xray T3 EU
KO Propo Helios
Tekin RS Pro/LRP X-12/Venom LiPo
Hudy
Litemodz CVS
Impulse_racer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2007, 03:49 PM   #238
Tech Champion
 
stiltskin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Virginia Beach
Posts: 5,368
Trader Rating: 102 (100%+)
Default

How 'bout dem Bears?
__________________
Tony Rumple
Team EAM // Gravity RC
stiltskin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2007, 03:53 PM   #239
Tech Master
 
billjacobs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Rockville, MD
Posts: 1,264
Trader Rating: 54 (100%+)
Default more

My posts are very seldom in response to a specific person, or a specific post. I was posting about the "change at your pace" argument, because that is precisely the issue. Change at your pace implies that the 2 technologies can be made virtually the same, and that while someone changes or until they change, they can run whatever they want. If that is true, give any good racer a 13.5 brushless car that is set up to their specs and see how much faster they get. Again, I don't care what anyone runs, I just get tired of people crying foul because new technology is better than what they run, and that is precisely the problem with the bl vs brushed debate now.

As for the brushless lasts forever argument, I have 2 13.5ss pro systems that I have had for about 6 months. I have at least 50 full runs on one, less on the other. I have never done any maintenance to the motors, and the only time they came out of the car was when I moved the system to a different car. For me, bl is as close to maintenance free as possible. So for me, all of the hype is true.

As for a bigger tool box, my toolbox contains 1 ps, 1 charger, 2 lipo batteries, a bunch of wrenches, and some spare parts including different springs. That's it. Those that want to find an edge will always be able to do so, but to make an argument against a technology because people will be able to find an edge is not fair.
billjacobs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2007, 04:18 PM   #240
Tech Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: north-west Indiana
Posts: 746
Trader Rating: 18 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by billjacobs
As for a bigger tool box, my toolbox contains 1 ps, 1 charger, 2 lipo batteries, a bunch of wrenches, and some spare parts including different springs. That's it. Those that want to find an edge will always be able to do so, but to make an argument against a technology because people will be able to find an edge is not fair.
Especially since we as racers demand that edge. You would think that with brushed and nimh tech coming to the close of its ingenuity that everyone would be jumping aboard the lipo/brushless as it is new and ready to be exploited. But no, they use the same arguments to support their dying tech to shun the new.
ie. No I don't want to switch because we will be in the same position as we are in now, but yet that is why I like brushed and nimh.
trilerian is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Anyone running Orion 4500mh cells? Loverc Electric Off-Road 0 12-22-2007 10:25 AM
running too rich or running to lean bumm_off_street Nitro On-Road 7 03-29-2006 08:28 PM
XRAY T1FK - RC12L3 - Serpent 710 - Surge Batteries (4-cells & 6-cells) and more XrayRacer R/C Items: For Sale/Trade 24 03-31-2005 03:19 PM
Anybody running the new 3600 cells yet? Bflat Electric On-Road 74 07-19-2004 07:01 PM
Esc: will running more cells hurt? huasze Singapore R/C Racers 9 02-10-2003 04:49 PM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 09:14 PM.


Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net