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Old 12-12-2007, 09:54 AM   #1
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Default Shaft or Belt for Drifting?

Which is e better one to get for drifting? A belt or a shaft driven car? Which is the best car to get? I was thinking a TC4. Is $200 a good price for a factory team Brand new in box TC4?
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Old 12-12-2007, 10:23 AM   #2
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whatever kit you can get your hands on that has parts available easily.
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Old 12-12-2007, 11:48 AM   #3
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Default shaft vs belt

Shaft vs. Belt: The Lowdown!
Here's one of those never-ending debates. When it comes time to select a touring car chassis for drifting, one of the decisions you'll have to make in the process is simple: shaft or belt drive? What's the cost difference? Does one perform better? What are the pro's and cons of each? Since this is always a hot topic, I've decided to offer my knowledge to weigh out both drivetrain types.

Explanation: Define both drivetrain types?


Shaft Drive: A shaft-driven AWD touring car chassis usually transmits power to both axles via a main driveshaft that runs along the centerline of the chassis. The power movement is as follows: motor to pinion gear -> pinion to spur gear -> spurgear is mounted to center driveshaft -> center driveshaft meshes to the front and rear differentials via conical gear that is attached to the differential.

Belt Drive: A belt-driven AWD touring car chassis usually transmits power to both axles via 1 or more (usually 2) drive belts that run along the centerline of the chassis. The power movement is as follows: motor to pinion gear -> pinion to spur gear -> spurgear is mounted to a layshaft, with a pulley attached to it -> center pulley has 2 belts rotating around it -> each belt transmits power to the front and rear differentials via belt pulley that is part of the differential.



What's good and bad about shaft-driven chassis for drifting?

A. Shaft cars are usually suggested to beginners to RC drifting simply because they generally cost less (new vs. new), so it's easier to get into RC drifting if you don't have to pay as much. Tamiya's TT-01 is an example of a commonly suggested shaft-driven chassis.

B. Shaft cars have more enclosed drivetrains, which is better since most RC drifting is done on unprepared surfaces with pebbles and dust, etc. stuff that can ruin ball bearings and diffs, etc.

C. With shaft cars you don't have to deal with belt tension, frayed belts, skipping teeth, and any other possible problems related to a belt-driven chassis.

D. Some can argue that shaft cars are more 'direct' in that there's a solid transfer between motor to pinion to spur to gear to shaft, etc. whereas there's arguements regarding belts stretching at first trigger pull.

E. Here's the bad part about shaft-driven chassis - torque steer. If you look at my drawing below:



As you can see, shaft-driven chassis transfer motor torque (1) laterally. When using a high-powered motor, this will 'twist' the chassis because the motor's torque if overpowering the suspension. The spur gear (2) and main driveshaft (3) then spin in the opposite direction (so motion, in turn, has just changed direction), and then motion changes direction once more 90-degrees to the front and rear diffs (4). Momentum is lost with each change in direction. Since this directional change is happening laterally (side to side) then it's almost like the motor is rocking the chassis side-to-side. This means that at a certain point in time, more torque/weight will favor one side of the chassis over the other. This can easily cause torque steer because weight transfer affects how much traction each tire has. If you rock the car to the left, then the right side tires will lose traction, and vice versa.

To put it simply, on shaft cars the motor itself is sitting inline, thus whenever you pull the trigger, motor torque is transferred left-to-right, or vice versa. This effect is felt more with mod motors, is inherent to all shaft cars, and produces unwanted torque steer.



What's good and bad about belt-driven chassis for drifting?

A. Belt cars transfer motor torque inline with the chassis movement. This does not give the chassis any 'torque steer' which is common with shaft cars since the direction of movement is similar, e.g. motor spins forward, wheels rotate forward. motion doesn't change direction except once (pinion to spur.) Look at my drawing below.



(1) Pinion gear rotates spur gear, motion changes from going backward to going forward (2). The layshaft pulley (3) moves forward, rotating both drive belts (front and rear) forward as well. Motion is still the same once the belts reach both diffs (4).

B. Belt cars run smoother and quieter, plus there's less drivetrain loss because there's less drivetrain weight overall (belt weight vs. shaft weight)

C. Some belt cars (i.e. TA-05) move the motor closer to the center of the car (more centerd between the front and rear axles) for better balance (especially when going sideways), whereas shaft cars almost always have the motor biased toward the rear.

D. The problems with belt-driven chassis are belts that will stretch over time (requiring belt tension adjustment or belt replacement. Also, since the pulleys aren't usually enclosed (like the differentials on a shaft-driven chassis are), pulleys are prone to sucking up rocks or pebbles in between the pulley teeth.


-------------------------------



Personally, if there's no budget constraints, I'd rather suggest a belt-driven car over a shaft for drifting competition. Check the forums and you'll find a lot of threads where people with shaft cars have uneven steering, or they have a push on one side but a pull (oversteer) going the other way, etc. The torque steer thing is what made me start with a belt car over a shaft car, and I've driven many, many different types of touring cars in my time.

If this doesn't convince you enough, then here's 3 reasons to consider that makes belt-driven chassis 'superior' to shaft cars:

Atsushi Hara
Mark Rheinard
Masami Hirosaka

- all multiple world champions in the touring car racing world... and all of them prefer belt-driven cars.

I thought so. =)
i do not know how to link to that page so i just copied it.
if you want to check more go to rc drift club! good site
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Old 12-13-2007, 04:54 PM   #4
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Hey great explanation! I was unaware of torque steer with higher mod motors.

However, the drawings did not show up. I think it is clear what you mean though.

I believe there are some chassis' that are covered belts. I know that the HPI RS4 Rally is a completely covered chassis that is belt driven.

I have a TT-01, and will be holding onto this for a while since I am not drifting competitively. Plus, this thing is as tough as a....rock...? haha!
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Old 12-14-2007, 03:39 AM   #5
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For drifting, torque steer is not as much of an issue as it is for racing. Even if you are racing, depends on what kind of motor you run. Anything under 19turns, shaft is fine.
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Old 12-14-2007, 06:37 AM   #6
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I dont beleive drifting needs as much research and thought when it comes to drive train.....

The beauty of drifting is a 100$ car and a 500$ car will drift the same, your taking away grip to slide. I would be going shaft since most drifting is done outdoors. ITs cleaner looking and your drive train will last for ever... Torque steer is overblown, when TC3 dominated the TC for 4-5 years many mod motors where being used and the torque steer never seemed to effect results

Drifting does not require huge horsepower to slide those slippery tires so i would not obsese over torque steer.
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Old 12-14-2007, 09:51 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel Lagace View Post
I
The beauty of drifting is a 100$ car and a 500$ car will drift the same, your taking away grip to slide. I would be going shaft since most drifting is done outdoors. ITs cleaner looking and your drive train will last for ever... Torque steer is overblown, when TC3 dominated the TC for 4-5 years many mod motors where being used and the torque steer never seemed to effect results

.
mmmm ummm NO!!

are you trying 2 say that a TT01 will drift better (out of box) than a (wats a performance car these days)...a t2 008?? doubtful.......

i have been plagued by torq steer on my TB02 now.....on grip tyres wit a 10x2 motor....nice n hot 4 yas....wit drift....torq steer is very hard 2 sense...

for grip racing sakes.....iam getting a ta05 4 chrissie...so yea......in answer 2 the original Q

wateva ur local hobby shop stocks parts 4....i can not emphasis this enuff....my local hoby shop 95% of the time has wat i need.....but imagine goin 2 a hobby shop and not havin any parts 4 ur drifta.....mmm no happy chappy anymore!!

there has been a lot of debate about shaft/belt....if u go to eastcoastdrift.net and chek out the chassis area...itll giv u a good idea of the chassis and drivetrain types we use 4 Dori!!

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Old 12-14-2007, 11:34 AM   #8
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Another disadvantage to drifting with a belt car....more bearings to burn up. Not fun when they seize up on you, which could burn up an ESC if you're not careful. I'd be worried about tearing up the belt too on pebbles/sand if you're not on a closed course. If you're knocking around in a parking lot or something, go with a shaft car.

What's everyone's take on HPI's new E10? I think it's a cool, cheap way for people to start out, great beginner car, much like the TT-01. Hop ups are coming too....

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Old 12-14-2007, 11:50 AM   #9
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What im saying is that the 100$ car and the 500$ car where never designed to drift. And yes a TT01 could drift better then a 008..... We are talking drift where you pitching the car sideways under control. IF anything it maybe harder to drift a 007/8 since these cars have been designed for real RACING where drifting is not the fast way around the track....


Also bearings wont burn up any faster in a belted or shaft drive car. Drifting is not any harder on bearings then racing. For the most part you have less stress on the bearings since you have no grip.

Im not trying to bash drifting but its not racing. IT does not take huge budget to drift effectivly, the lastest xtreme mag did a drift race review and many of the competators run low end or sport chassis. Why? cuz they work, some spend on the bling but in the end its the driver thats controlling the drift not the bling

Drifting is an affordable way into competative rc. Where racing takes a proper car and gear, a drifter can get away with untuned machine wound motors and stick packs.
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Old 12-14-2007, 01:43 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel Lagace View Post
What im saying is that the 100$ car and the 500$ car where never designed to drift. And yes a TT01 could drift better then a 008..... We are talking drift where you pitching the car sideways under control. IF anything it maybe harder to drift a 007/8 since these cars have been designed for real RACING where drifting is not the fast way around the track....


Also bearings wont burn up any faster in a belted or shaft drive car. Drifting is not any harder on bearings then racing. For the most part you have less stress on the bearings since you have no grip.

Im not trying to bash drifting but its not racing. IT does not take huge budget to drift effectivly, the lastest xtreme mag did a drift race review and many of the competators run low end or sport chassis. Why? cuz they work, some spend on the bling but in the end its the driver thats controlling the drift not the bling

Drifting is an affordable way into competative rc. Where racing takes a proper car and gear, a drifter can get away with untuned machine wound motors and stick packs.
there is a perfect example of how racing should be. when spending thousands doesn't give you any advantage. i hate the fact i would have to fork out 500 to be remotely competetive in TC racing. thats why i'm only going to do it for fun (how it should be anyway) personally i don't like drift, but its a good way to start.
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Old 12-14-2007, 01:50 PM   #11
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I dont think torque steer is the culprit alot of times on a badly setup shaft caar. Peopple automatically assume, it's torque steer, but can be tweaked chassis or uneven suspension. Badly setup belt cars will react the same way. Torque steer is defo overblown in my opinion.
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Old 12-14-2007, 02:28 PM   #12
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Toque steer did not stop Team associated from winning numberous national races with the TC3.... so put that to rest considering a drifter hardly needs more power then a 19t to get the job done.


You dont need to spend thousands to race TC either, case in point.. We run a spec TC class based on the HOTbodies cyclone S. No hopups spec motor tires and battery. This week our current top dog of TC took a spec cyclone S installed a race ready motor battery and set of sorex tires, and placed second place in the a-main, he normally wins it. So this 150$ car nearly duplicated his 500$ 007 results.... (this was done with no oneway wich he normally uses, no chassis setup, first drive ever on the car.... Great drivers will get the job done with any car)


Either way your right Drifting is a one step above bashing where a guy can take his basher ride and enter a drift comp with some driving skillz and the right tires and setup.
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Old 12-15-2007, 03:09 PM   #13
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look at most the rc drifters in japan. the majority of them are running shaft driven so use that as an example...
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Old 12-15-2007, 03:59 PM   #14
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I've owned a mix of touring cars, both 1:18 and 1:10. RS4 micro, Xray M18, TT01, TB02, TA05, RS4 rally, and a MR4-TC special. I still have the latter three and the M18. Overall, I prefer belt-drive (never thought i'd say that) over shaft-drive because of the way they feel. Hard to explain really but they feel a little smoother.

I guess it's because both front and rear wheels on a belt-drive start turning at the same time, whereas there's a bit of lag between the rear tires turning and the front tires turning on a shaft-drive.

I think the reason why the drifters prefer the shaft-drive is because they can get the rears to break traction before the fronts... which causes the required oversteer. But like someone already stated, when it comes down to driver skill, it doesn't matter what type of drive is used.

Last edited by Sabin; 12-23-2007 at 03:11 AM.
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Old 12-23-2007, 03:12 AM   #15
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sorry. meant to say shaft drive for that last paragraph. too much belt on the brains. :P
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