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Old 12-11-2007, 02:43 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by damo666 View Post
If you can be bothered and have the time to rebuild brushed motors, balance packs etc etc then go for it.I have gone over to brushless and lipo and racing is much more relaxed as I'm not running about all the time and i dont need to prep the motors and batteries in between races, so i can concentrate on the chassis alone.Brushless and lipo is the future it just depends how long it takes.But in the meantime keep skimming,balancing,soldering and I'll just charge and go
When the lipo packs have as much punch as my 4200s and the speed controls are stable I will be relaxing with you.
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Old 12-11-2007, 02:45 PM   #32
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fans are not new to inside motors.. i think my tyco had one in the oldschool metal posted brush motor. the fan is in there to improve the cooling on the motor allowing it to run more gear. you should just wait until fanned radiators are sitting in your chassis with the water intercooler pumping through it. those lipo 6000 mah's will be more than enough to cool that down for 2 heats.

in 15 years you guys will be bitching about ROAR taking way traction control on your f1 car.

this is just evolving into a scaled real electric car.
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Old 12-11-2007, 02:46 PM   #33
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I sure do miss vacuum tubes. :-(

You must be older, the only people who know about vaccum tubes now are musicians, they have discovered they give a much richer sound than digital amplifiers. Funny how everything comes around.
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Old 12-11-2007, 02:48 PM   #34
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When your 4200's BLOW and before you shell out AGAIN for more 4200's let me know and I'll sell you an old lipo thats still give as much as the day i bought it.
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Old 12-11-2007, 02:55 PM   #35
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You must be older, the only people who know about vaccum tubes now are musicians, they have discovered they give a much richer sound than digital amplifiers. Funny how everything comes around.
Haha. I'm still much closer to 30 than 40... but I guess I'm getting up there. I'm a wannabe audiophile (headphone amps) and see this same argument play out on those forums now and then.
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Old 12-11-2007, 03:07 PM   #36
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vacuum tubes. sweet

in 1/12 i run now BL 10.5 and im loving it.
maintaining brushed motors sucks. imo
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Old 12-11-2007, 03:10 PM   #37
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I sure do miss vacuum tubes. :-(
Interjected at the right time, that is just too funny.
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Old 12-11-2007, 04:17 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by billjacobs View Post
One of the problems in r/c is that no one leaves things alone. If you are supposed to gear the motor in a certain range and watch the temperature, everyone tries to gear it within 1 degree of the critical temperature looking for an edge. If you are supposed to charge at 5 amps, people charge at 8 amps, etc. Because brushless motors are fairly consistent in speed between the same model motors, and because they maintain the same performance over time, maybe the key to brushless and even competition is to have restricted gearing?

Saying that brushless is not reliable is the same as saying that nimh are not reliable because of the IB cells. More details are needed.
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Once the tuners start to tinker with the brushless technology your going to wish that they come up with some "new" motor, so they don't have that artificial advantage that you guys seem to think they, "the tuners" have with the brushless, just the same as brushed is now.

Your going to get start seeing differnet rotor diameters, different magnet power level rotors, wye versus delta wind coils, different types of wire coils, different types of magnet material rotors. SO yes your right, no more com lathe, that will now have to be a unimat so you can cut your rotors. No more magnet zapper, you'll need a rotor zapper. No more brushess, yup you got us on that one. A PC so that you will be able to play around with changing the firing of the hall sensors within the motor itself, and not just the speedo. May as well get some of those fancy ceramic bearings. Check into getting one of those brushless dynos since all those motors are so equal, just to be sure. The list goes on and on, will brushless and LiPo be the saving grace for r/c, NO, its just the next phase of a never ending development.

When I started there wasn't even external bruhed motors, and the best battery you could buy was 1100 mah, Sanyo, Panasonic, Saft where the big names in batteries, they didn't even have ball diffs yet, so if you think that what you wish for is going to be the answer, your sadly mistaken, its just going to be the next, in a long line nexts.

I'm not posting this to start a fight or any of that stuff, I just want the new people to know that, its not just going to be a "one battery pack, one motor" shangrala world that all the brushless/LiPo want the newbies to believe in. Its going to get real advanced in technology real quick.

Both these post illustrate that racers will do what it takes to go faster. Brushless is a way better technology in that the motors are much closer in power. That being said, there are freak motors out there. I have seen several in the short time since brushless has gotten big in my area. It's not as bad as what goes on in 27t stock racing, but there is still a variance, and there are faster motors.

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Originally Posted by billjacobs View Post
There are several reasons that brushless hasn't taken over yet:
1) too many racers have too much money invested in brushed motors and support products (speed controllers, lathes, dyno's, brushes, springs, can zappers, etc.)
2) too many tuners make money from brushed motors
3) spending money on brushed motors ensures a speed advantage that goes away with brushless
4) since most top drivers are sponsored, they run what their sponsors give them, and since roar relies on the manufacturers for their support, race sponsors, etc, roar also does what the sponsors tell them (to a point)
5) their is no brushless equivalent to any brushed motor. Even if their peak power output is similar, a brushless motor will pull fewer amps from the battery, won't heat up as much, and will be much more consistent throughout the run
6) the inefficiency in brushed motors helps justify higher voltage nimh batteries which are continuously released, helping the matchers make money

Like everything else, it all comes down to money and competition.
Since you are obsessing with the issue of money, perhaps you'd like to contemplate the upcoming Novak race which will be all brushless. Now in the foam tire 13.5 and 10.5 classes, unless they have changed their minds, all 10.5 and 13.5 motors are allowed. That means you need to:
*get a sample of each motor to see which is the fastest
or
*try to discern from internet postings which ones are slow, and hope that the posters have a clue, so you can pare down your choices
or
*Just buy a Novak, since everybody mostly runs them, and say to hell with all this fooling around.

That's after you figure out which speedo is the best, though it seems that choice is a bit less daunting.

This also does not take into consideration rotor changes or any of that.

Again, I'd say brushless is a heck of a lot better than brushed, just because QC is way above machine wound stock motors. It does have it's own batch of problems, and isn't perfect, but it is a great improvement.

As for #6, do you not think that voltage makes brushless motors faster too?? It does my friend. The Lipos will also be figured out eventually too, don't worry about that. It IS racing after all. And it will cost you
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Old 12-11-2007, 04:25 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cammer View Post
You must be older, the only people who know about vaccum tubes now are musicians, they have discovered they give a much richer sound than digital amplifiers. Funny how everything comes around.
Actually, they always knew! It was the 80s where it was obscured.
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Old 12-12-2007, 07:43 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Mason View Post
fans are not new to inside motors.. i think my tyco had one in the oldschool metal posted brush motor. the fan is in there to improve the cooling on the motor allowing it to run more gear. you should just wait until fanned radiators are sitting in your chassis with the water intercooler pumping through it. those lipo 6000 mah's will be more than enough to cool that down for 2 heats.

in 15 years you guys will be bitching about ROAR taking way traction control on your f1 car.

this is just evolving into a scaled real electric car.
In r/c about 20 years ago they used to make a motor with the last plate of the arm stack with a slight bend in it to cause a little air movement. Was it effecient or did it cause too much drag, not sure, but not being used anymore.

As far a traction control and ROAR, from what I've read, that makes it 30 years before they actually make a rule change, I'll be in a home by then.
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Old 12-12-2007, 08:35 AM   #41
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hey damo666:That's all well and good,but other than on the club level how many big races allow lipo batteries not many that i know as of yet.Thanks
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Old 12-12-2007, 08:39 AM   #42
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Hi,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cammer View Post
You must be older, the only people who know about vaccum tubes now are musicians, they have discovered they give a much richer sound than digital amplifiers. Funny how everything comes around.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallyedmonds View Post
vacuum tubes. sweet

in 1/12 i run now BL 10.5 and im loving it.
maintaining brushed motors sucks. imo
Vacuum tubes are still very much in use at the present in many home audio systems in the world.

Have a look at my avator - got 16 of them in my amp

Regards,
Joe Ling
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Old 12-12-2007, 12:37 PM   #43
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aw jeez
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Old 12-12-2007, 12:59 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Johnny Wishbone View Post
Once the tuners start to tinker with the brushless technology your going to wish that they come up with some "new" motor, so they don't have that artificial advantage that you guys seem to think they, "the tuners" have with the brushless, just the same as brushed is now.

Your going to get start seeing differnet rotor diameters, different magnet power level rotors, wye versus delta wind coils, different types of wire coils, different types of magnet material rotors. SO yes your right, no more com lathe, that will now have to be a unimat so you can cut your rotors. No more magnet zapper, you'll need a rotor zapper. No more brushess, yup you got us on that one. A PC so that you will be able to play around with changing the firing of the hall sensors within the motor itself, and not just the speedo. May as well get some of those fancy ceramic bearings. Check into getting one of those brushless dynos since all those motors are so equal, just to be sure. The list goes on and on, will brushless and LiPo be the saving grace for r/c, NO, its just the next phase of a never ending development.

When I started there wasn't even external bruhed motors, and the best battery you could buy was 1100 mah, Sanyo, Panasonic, Saft where the big names in batteries, they didn't even have ball diffs yet, so if you think that what you wish for is going to be the answer, your sadly mistaken, its just going to be the next, in a long line nexts.

I'm not posting this to start a fight or any of that stuff, I just want the new people to know that, its not just going to be a "one battery pack, one motor" shangrala world that all the brushless/LiPo want the newbies to believe in. Its going to get real advanced in technology real quick.
It is funny you mentioned this. In my area, there are some guys that were brushed motor tuners already experimenting with the brushless motors as far as tuning. There is a guy that has a metal lathe and is buying comms, shaving time at different diameters trying to get that extra power/rpm. A couple are experimenting with rezapping the rotors, using ceramic bearings, and tinkering with the windings of the cans. So, as you can see, the quest to have that advantage over the unknown or unresourceful racer has already begun.
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Old 12-12-2007, 01:27 PM   #45
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Default way to fix tampering

Shaving the rotor, putting in ceramic bearings, and playing with the winds is the same as putting bearings into a stock motor, drill balancing it, or removing winds to make it faster, it is CHEATING.

The only way to stop motor cheating is to create a tamper evident sealed brushless motor that the racer cannot open. Since the only parts that can wear in a brushless motor are the bearings, and 1 is already sealed, you can simply recess the front bearing into the can and put a teflon seal over it. You can also put a synthetic grease into the bearings that will last for the life of the motor. This will put an end to cheating and motor tinkering.

The only reason tuners are modifying the motors, instead of simply getting a faster motor (no one is tuning the novak 3.5), is because they want to have an unfair edge.
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