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Old 12-11-2007, 12:29 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by billjacobs View Post

The excuse that brushless is too expensive for the newbie is frankly bs handed out by the tuners to stay in business. The best thing to happen in r/c in over a decade is when brushless fully replaces brushed motors and the cost of r/c drops because of it.

Once the tuners start to tinker with the brushless technology your going to wish that they come up with some "new" motor, so they don't have that artificial advantage that you guys seem to think they, "the tuners" have with the brushless, just the same as brushed is now.

Your going to get start seeing differnet rotor diameters, different magnet power level rotors, wye versus delta wind coils, different types of wire coils, different types of magnet material rotors. SO yes your right, no more com lathe, that will now have to be a unimat so you can cut your rotors. No more magnet zapper, you'll need a rotor zapper. No more brushess, yup you got us on that one. A PC so that you will be able to play around with changing the firing of the hall sensors within the motor itself, and not just the speedo. May as well get some of those fancy ceramic bearings. Check into getting one of those brushless dynos since all those motors are so equal, just to be sure. The list goes on and on, will brushless and LiPo be the saving grace for r/c, NO, its just the next phase of a never ending development.

When I started there wasn't even external bruhed motors, and the best battery you could buy was 1100 mah, Sanyo, Panasonic, Saft where the big names in batteries, they didn't even have ball diffs yet, so if you think that what you wish for is going to be the answer, your sadly mistaken, its just going to be the next, in a long line nexts.

I'm not posting this to start a fight or any of that stuff, I just want the new people to know that, its not just going to be a "one battery pack, one motor" shangrala world that all the brushless/LiPo want the newbies to believe in. Its going to get real advanced in technology real quick.
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Old 12-11-2007, 12:54 PM   #17
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Johnny Wishbone- you are correct. That is why roar introduced rules and specs for brushless motors. The big change in going from brushed to brushless is that the small tuners won't be a player. Brushless tuning (if allowed) involves swapping parts, not fixing tolerance problems in mass produced brushed motors.

In my mind, brushless is superior precisely because it doesn't require maintenance and maintains similar performance over the motor's life. Brushless is the perfect motor to level the playing field.

One thing that I would like to see is for novak, lrp, etc, to produce a sealed tamper resistant brushless spec motor (13.5, 14.5, whatever.) The motor would seal and shield the bearings, and would require zero maintenance over its life. (I find it interesting that the lrp brushless motors have air vent holes that let all of the dirt and dust into the motor.)
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Old 12-11-2007, 01:04 PM   #18
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I can honestly say that the ones who will moan the loudest about brushless are the ones who have ALWAYS been able to outspend the average joe on motors. Now with brushless being equal it now boils down to fresh packs and chassis and with lipo at some point being legalized it will ultimately be chasiss setup and driver skills winning races not who has the most $$$$$ and Like I have said in other post some racers have gotten faster because in past with brushed they may not have had all the rip but they worked on chassis setup to get faster and now with equal power they are now as fast or faster then the ones who had the better motors....I guess I can see why they would piss and moan about it. It takes away a advantage they once had!!!
Bottom line for me is I have gone completely brushless in all my cars road course and oval and I have sold all my brushed equip accept my lath and I will never go back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have seen a increase in time between rounds to work on chassis and enjoy the other races. I believe I have stepped it up because of this and am able to run with others that in brushed I only wished I could run with I never realy was a motor guru but was able to be somewhat competitive in part because I did work on setups a lot..
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Old 12-11-2007, 01:07 PM   #19
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billjacobs, I guess the point I was trying to make was the fact that the initial investment to people is harder to swallow for a brushless system than it is for brushed setup.
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Old 12-11-2007, 01:13 PM   #20
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I run both technologies, but for club, and for a person starting out, brushless is the way to go, hands down. I just find that the rigors of club racing and no time between rounds doesn't allow for the simplest maintainence task for a brushed motor. But go to a bigger race where its like 3-5 hours between rounds, what else are you going to do? Watch a little racing, build a couple of motors, re-build your car, go for a nap, heck if you wanted to, you could wind your own motor.

The rules themselves in some terms aren't restricted enough yet to maintain a equal playing field or a spec class as you want. With the old if you had issues you could always unwind a arm and tech it, brushless isn't as easy as that. Sure there is the reluctance of the coil, but ......I'll pass on the topic. In any matter tighter regs and common specifics between brands would fix that.

Have you seen a Orion, with a fan built into it, cooler or dirt sucker, LOL.
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Old 12-11-2007, 01:14 PM   #21
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[QUOTE=Johnny Wishbone;3962943]
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Originally Posted by billjacobs View Post
That brushless motor will last for years. In fact, the only problem with brushless motors is that new ones keep coming out trying to be the same as brushed motors, which is impossible.

I wish you would explain that to the 2 dead brushless motors I have that are less than 8 months old.
man I cant recall how many brushed motors I baught over the years that where duds and even after reworking them they where only good for paper weights.....

I baught two this year at the same race that even with the help of a well respected tuner they where pos's.........
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Old 12-11-2007, 01:18 PM   #22
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I have a stock can that has had no less than 5 arms through it. In regular club racing I run the brushes till the serrations are gone, sometimes longer, then I may drill a hole in the brush. I never race discolored brushes, and my car is always decently competitive in the speed department. Once in a big while I will turn the motor in to get it re-tuned with the equipment I don't have (magnet zapper), and this particular motor always bounces back fairly close to it's original performance. It's a myth that you have to re-tune a motor every run if you want to be fast. I witnessed first hand a team driver that left his motor in his car for every race run at the IIC, and his car was ballistic every round.

I will, however, agree that for now brushless motors will be more economical for the average joe club racer that heralds to the current creedo that you have to re-brush every round and the motor should be thrown away after 40 runs. But I am of the opinion that these racers are either made of money, or don't want to learn the very basics of keeping a motor in tune (which is not hard work), and are dying to drop some serious coin on the newest gear.

I am waiting for the day that people are complaining that they have to hire someone to re-tune their speed controllers because they don't know how to code, or forgot their PC at home.
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Old 12-11-2007, 01:20 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraig View Post
billjacobs, I guess the point I was trying to make was the fact that the initial investment to people is harder to swallow for a brushless system than it is for brushed setup.
But then there are the hidden cost for brushed!!!if you plan on maintaining then for top performance
1) lathe
2) brushess every week or two
3) hood alignment tool
I mean just the lathe alone if new will make up the difference in cost.
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Old 12-11-2007, 01:45 PM   #24
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I like brushless myself and It's going to cost you either way I just think in the LONG run brushless is the better deal.
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Old 12-11-2007, 01:54 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmccormick View Post
But then there are the hidden cost for brushed!!!if you plan on maintaining then for top performance
1) lathe
2) brushess every week or two
3) hood alignment tool
I mean just the lathe alone if new will make up the difference in cost.
Yes I agree with you 100%. Only those that see that though are the guys who are racing. People who run their cars outside in the yard and such just end up buying a new motor when that one isn't working anymore.

If I was still selling items then I would definately recommend brushless because they will enjoy it more than a brushed motor.
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Old 12-11-2007, 02:15 PM   #26
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I believe that the reverse is happening of what most people think.

Brushless is the new favorite beginner set-up. Cheaper and easier, if you are going to buy even a used lathe and some brushes and springs.

As you get better in tuning and driving you may want to go to a big race. They have handouts and you have to "tune" your own motors to be competitive at these big races (IIC, Snowbirds, ect).

So, now what was once the norm is now considered for the advanced driver.
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Old 12-11-2007, 02:20 PM   #27
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Hi guys, I thought I'd put my 2p worth in the mix! At our local race meetings (UK South West Winter Series), all but 2 of the A-final racers in 1/12th run brushless setups. Alot of people were saying before the start of the season that if you did not run brushless, you would end up nowhere compared to the guys that are running brushless. Well, 3 races into the series and the person winning the meetings (that happens to be me! Yippee!!) is still running a brushed motor and guy in 2nd is also running a brushed motor. So it goes to show that it's not just about what motor setup you run, you obviously have to take into account all the other variables too! And because of the differant way a brushless motor delivers its power compared to a brushed setup, alot of the guys are now struggling with their chassis setup as well. Not only this, but quite a few guys are snapping the motor shaft clean off where it goes into the can on the pinion side! I have seen this happen many times now not by newbies, but by very experienced racers. I certainly will not be going over to brushless as of yet as I have many good motors and personally, I can't see the advantage of spending 250 pounds on a brushless setup. All the best guys,

Chris.
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Old 12-11-2007, 02:29 PM   #28
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[QUOTE=Jmccormick;3963107]
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Originally Posted by Johnny Wishbone View Post

man I cant recall how many brushed motors I baught over the years that where duds and even after reworking them they where only good for paper weights.....

I baught two this year at the same race that even with the help of a well respected tuner they where pos's.........

I could say the same about brushless speed controls, except they are $225 each not $40 for a brushed motor. Which is why I went back to brushes.
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Old 12-11-2007, 02:31 PM   #29
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I sure do miss vacuum tubes. :-(
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Old 12-11-2007, 02:41 PM   #30
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If you can be bothered and have the time to rebuild brushed motors, balance packs etc etc then go for it.I have gone over to brushless and lipo and racing is much more relaxed as I'm not running about all the time and i dont need to prep the motors and batteries in between races, so i can concentrate on the chassis alone.Brushless and lipo is the future it just depends how long it takes.But in the meantime keep skimming,balancing,soldering and I'll just charge and go
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