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Old 12-09-2007, 10:09 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by trailranger View Post
I like the idea of handout BL motors for large events. It would be a good way for manufactures to clean out old inventory....
I can't speak for other motor companies, but Novak doesn't have "old inventory". We wind motors to fill current orders.
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Old 12-09-2007, 11:06 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Joel Lagace View Post

NOVAKTWO- we are talking stock BL not mod, So the 13.5 is a roar legal mod motor thats good, but its not a stock motor. By any definition so far. ITs simply a slow mod
All BL motors are the same construction so there is no stock or mod other than wind and magnet size. In fact 13.5's are harder to wind than 3.5's so 13.5's should be more expensive...lol!
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Old 12-09-2007, 11:21 PM   #33
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All BL motors are the same construction so there is no stock or mod other than wind and magnet size. In fact 13.5's are harder to wind than 3.5's so 13.5's should be more expensive...lol!
Adrian,

I agree with you.

I was browsing Tower's online store a few days ago and was so puzzled that all the various brands (Novak, LRP, Tekin, Orion etc...) BL motors for 13.5, 17.5 and 21.5 are much much expensive compared to 3.5 & 4.5...
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Old 12-09-2007, 11:47 PM   #34
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Adrian,

I agree with you.

I was browsing Tower's online store a few days ago and was so puzzled that all the various brands (Novak, LRP, Tekin, Orion etc...) BL motors for 13.5, 17.5 and 21.5 are much much expensive compared to 3.5 & 4.5...
All the motors have the same list price (ROAR price cap)---but, Tower charges more for newly released products in short supply.
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Old 12-10-2007, 12:37 AM   #35
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On an 'unrelated subject' the NEW 21.5 NOVAK Brushless Motor...was run for the FIRST TIME at the Encino Velodrome in Southern Calif. yesterday (Saturday)

This motor was run with a ORION 3200 LIPO pack mixed in with the old regular guys who run 4 cell STOCK 27t Brushed motors.

The Track RECORD for the 27t STOCK MOTOR with 4 cell is currently a really fast 25 lap run.

The 2nd run of the day - both drivers using the 21.5 motor/LIPO combination were running FAST 27 lap runs.

So FAST vs. SLOW motors arer a matter of Perception of what SPEED is.

The FASTEST LAP recorded by the 21.5 / Lipo car was a 10.66 second lap.

This track is 250 meters in length (Or 820 feet "in the runline")

The SPEED for that lap would be 52.46 MPH (Not what I would call SLOW)

Another SPEED Fact - in the MODIFIED class (which is running the NOVAK 10.5 motors with the same 3200 ORION LIPOS) the SINGLE quickest lap turned in at this same event was clocked at 8.80 seconds which would be 63.55 MPH.

NOTE: These are 'REAL' speeds, not speeds that are made up for any kind of HYPE. They were captured by both computer time and Radar gun, and with cars geared to run a full 5+ minutes of racing.
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Old 12-10-2007, 05:59 AM   #36
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SW. You dont think that the 4.8volts vs the 7.4volts had any hand in those lap times? Sure it was a 21t vs 27 turn but im not sure what the point of the comparison is... its like comaring a 4cell mod against a 6cell stock... apples and oranges..

Anyway... kool speed trap though 63mph under race conditions



So to create a stock BL rule it sounds like only the magnet and wind needs to be controlled and price. Now im getting 13,17 and 21 turn BL thrown in here as stock BL.... Again wich brings me back to the topic, what will be or should be defined as a STOCK BL motor? Right now they are all mod motors.


I guess the saving grace here is that if nothing ever happens, at the club level we will just spec a 13.5 model number. Right now novak as 3 or 4??? 13.5bl motors? From what i understand there is wide gap in performacne between the best and worst just in that line....
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Old 12-10-2007, 06:18 AM   #37
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SWTour actually brings up an interesting point. If LiPo is the future of RC (and at some tracks, it's the present), then a motor designed for 7.4v LiPo packs is needed for stock when the class usually runs 4-cell (1/12th scale and oval for example).
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Old 12-10-2007, 06:27 AM   #38
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good point, thats true, since there is no 4.8volt lipo ony 3.7v a change in motor turn would be needed to replicate 4cell stock classes
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Old 12-10-2007, 07:01 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NovakTwo View Post
I can't speak for other motor companies, but Novak doesn't have "old inventory". We wind motors to fill current orders.
I guess someone is doing thier jobs in marketing and supply-chain management. Not much can be said for the LHS that still have old-stock
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Old 12-10-2007, 07:12 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Joel Lagace View Post
good point, thats true, since there is no 4.8volt lipo ony 3.7v a change in motor turn would be needed to replicate 4cell stock classes
Motoring up to make 3.7v Lipo as fast as 27T 4.8v stock is easier than motoring down to slow down a 7.4v pack. I am pretty sure that a Novak 21.5BL on 7.4v in a pan car is a TON faster than a 27T 4.8v car.

A 10.5 on a single 3.7V lipo would probably be as fast as a stock 4 cell car.
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Old 12-10-2007, 07:13 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by NovakTwo View Post
Novak has 17.5T motors and 21.5T available now---based on the original ROAR BL motor rules. I'm wondering which mfg (you believe) would be willing to spend the time and money to tool up for a completely new ROAR BL stock motor design?

The existing motors work well and have been race-tested for several years. Why, and how, should the future ROAR-approved, stock BL motors differ significantly from the current mod BL design?
I don't think you can make significant changes to the existing BL motors. Here are things I feel you could potentially standize:

Bushings instead of bearings. (not a fan of this)
Rotor Material
Rotor Size
Air Gap between rotor and windings
Motor Can - Stamped Steel over machined aluminum for Stock
Winding - Wire type {round/flat}
Winding - Material {copper/aluminum/etc}
Winding - Wire gauge
Timing - locked but pointless since it can be adjusted within ESC

After all that is said, I would prefer that Stock become 13.5 BL as is, but move to LiPo instead if NiMh for Stock Class Racing. The whole point of Stock is to level the playing field, and slightly reduce the cost. LiPo can help accomplish this.
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Old 12-10-2007, 09:46 AM   #42
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Spec racing is disappearing and being replaced by Mod, which is now the true spec class......
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Old 12-10-2007, 09:56 AM   #43
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Motoring up to make 3.7v Lipo as fast as 27T 4.8v stock is easier than motoring down to slow down a 7.4v pack. I am pretty sure that a Novak 21.5BL on 7.4v in a pan car is a TON faster than a 27T 4.8v car.

A 10.5 on a single 3.7V lipo would probably be as fast as a stock 4 cell car.
Adrian is somewhat correct. We were pushing for something a little slower yet than the 21.5 motor (actually 25.5) but we were not the only ones in the 'test' pool.

We did also think about using something like a 4 - LIPO cells paralleled (3.7 volts) and run some of the faster motors. However with SO many variable and so many different FOIL wrapped LiPos we wanted something a little more constant and easier to tech. So we (A group of OVAL enthusiasts from across the country) decided to go with the ORION 3200 batteries to make the group pretty consistant and take the battery of the month out of the picture.

Brushless is sure a different animal when you start throwing GEAR at it... Unlike a BRUSHED STOCK motor that will just lay down and DIE if you over gear it...these lower Kv Brushless motor just KEEP Taking more and more and more.

On short flat tracks the difference between a 27t STOCK/4 cell and a 21.5 LIPO car are pretty small. On a 'FREE' track, especially one running CAPPED tires it's pretty considerable. (ONE FULL Second a Lap no a Velodrome, about 1/2 second a LAP on the Banked track in Bakersfield METRO R/C)
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Old 12-10-2007, 10:11 AM   #44
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Part of the my reason for think 3.7v is the way to go is that you need no new winds...just put in a 3.7v pack and motor up until you get to 27T 4.8v lap times.

Another reason is lighter weight. Lighter weight means les tire wear, less inertia during crashes, etc.

We may have to alter car setups to compensate but that is certainly do-able....softer springs and tire compounds....
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Old 12-10-2007, 12:41 PM   #45
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Part of the my reason for think 3.7v is the way to go is that you need no new winds...just put in a 3.7v pack and motor up until you get to 27T 4.8v lap times.

Another reason is lighter weight. Lighter weight means les tire wear, less inertia during crashes, etc.

We may have to alter car setups to compensate but that is certainly do-able....softer springs and tire compounds....
Why motor up? I'd just let the 4 cell stock stuff run a little slower (12th isn't all that far off for instance). A little less speed in the slowest class would be a good thing IMO. The other classes can run a hotter motor because they should be faster.

The only downside of the 3.7v deal is that you must run a receiver pack. It's not really a big deal but you will need to run it.
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