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Old 12-08-2007, 09:31 PM   #16
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YES U MUST LIMIT DEVELOPMENT... in a stock class. In mod have at it. Mod is practically open. But to have stock racing you must limit development, i always hate when guys(not u, people in general) race stock also want to have technology advancements the moment they come out. Stock is about limitations. Brushless mod is not up for debate. Stock brushless is, and it needs limitations and price caps in place in order to allow stock to continue on as a slower alternative and cheaper alternative to mod racing.
I have raced stock, 19T and Mod over the last 22 years. Mod is the cheapest class to race in. The motors last longer, magnets never die, you have more power than you can use so motor tuning in nonexistant, brushes last 15-20 runs and since 3800's dumping has not really been an issue so batteries are not as important.

In stock we buy more motors than the mod guys to find good ones, the magnet die if you get them hot, we cut and re-brush every run even at club races, you have to have high voltage packs....etc.

I ran 27T stock for the first time in a year a couple of weeks ago....never again. I never had to work on motors like that in 19T and mod...its was just stupid.
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Old 12-08-2007, 10:12 PM   #17
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Just my feelings, and I do not endorse BRL, but following thier rules for 13.5 would be a good start to stanardization. There will always be differences in performance between designs from on company to another. It will be up to the racers to use those differences in performance for thier advantage. I also belive in motor upgrades. If it makes my motor run cooler, have higher rpm, higher torque, or better anything I will look into it.

***This is part of what BRL has for motor rules****

5.1 ) Sensored or sensorless motors are allowed unless specified by class rules.

5.2 ) The motor has to be rebuildable. Ball bearings are allowed.

5.3 ) If the motor is sensored:
It must use a six position JST ZH connector model number ZHR-6 or equivalent
connector with 6 JST part number SZH-002T-PO.5 26-28 awg contacts or equivalent.
Wire sequence must be as follows:
Pin #1- Black wire-ground potential
Pin #2- Orange wire-phase C
Pin #3- White wire-phase B
Pin #4- Green wire-phase A
Pin #5- Blue wire-temp control, 10 k Thermistor referenced to ground potential
Pin #6- Red wire-+ 5.0 volts =/- 10%

For clarification pin #1 is on the left hand side of the above connector with the wires
exiting the top of the connector and the plastic tangs that hold the contacts in the
housing are facing forward.
5.4 ) Compatible sensored speed controls must use the six position JST header part number X-6B-ZRSMX-
TK (where the X denotes the style of the header), or equivalent.
The power connector has to be clearly marked A, B, C. on both speed control and motor.
A for phase A
B for phase B
C for phase C

5.5 ) Can
Overall maximum diameter is 36.02mm measured at whatever point yields the
maximum dimension, excluding solder tabs or lead wires. Overall minimum diameter is 34.00mm measured at whatever point yields the minimum dimension, excluding solder tabs or lead wires. Maximum length is 53.00mm measured from the mounting face of the motor to the furthest most point of the end bell, not including solder tabs, lead wires or original manufacturer’s logo or name. Minimum length is 50.00mm measured from the mounting face of the motor to the furthest most point of the end bell, not including solder
tabs, lead wires or original manufacturer’s logo or name. Motor mounting holes must be on 1.00- inch (25.40mm) centers.

5.6 ) Stack/Stator
Stack minimum length 19.30mm, maximum 21.00mm. Stack inside diameter minimum 12.50mm, maximum 16.00mm. If a stack is used then it must be continuous. The laminations have to be one after the other without anything in between. The thickness of the stack plates is 0.35 +/- 0.05mm. All laminations must be of the same material.

5.7 ) Winding
Only three slot (phase) “Y” wound stators are permitted. No delta wound stators allowed. Only circular (round) pure copper wire permitted. No turn limit.

5.8 ) Rotor
Shaft diameter must be 0.125 inches (3.175mm). Only one piece, two pole Neodymium or Ferrite magnetic rotors are permitted. Magnet minimum length 23.00mm, maximum 27.00mm. Magnet minimum diameter 12.00mm, maximum 15.50mm.

5.9 ) All motors must have the original manufacturer’s logo or name molded into the end bell.

5.10 ) Motors must be available thru major distribution channels for a minimum of 60 days prior to being legal for BRL competition.

5.11 ) No hybrids allowed. (mixing of parts from approved brushless motors unless otherwise specified)

5.12 ) The maximum retail price of a modified brushless motor shall be $129.00

5.13 ) Motors may inspected or torn down at the race directors digression.
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Old 12-09-2007, 10:08 AM   #18
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I pretty much agree with all of the BRL rules except that they should allow delta winds because this is the wind that most nonsensored motors use.

I always hear that y-winds are better from the sensored manufacturers. If this is true why don't they want to allow the delta's in?

Delta's should be allowed in all classes IMO.
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Old 12-09-2007, 02:00 PM   #19
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I pretty much agree with all of the BRL rules except that they should allow delta winds because this is the wind that most nonsensored motors use.

I always hear that y-winds are better from the sensored manufacturers. If this is true why don't they want to allow the delta's in?

Delta's should be allowed in all classes IMO.
Delta winds behave like completely diffrent motors than wye winds of the same number of turns. This is why they are not run together.

Delta terminated motors act like they have ~1.7x fewer windings than a wye terminated motor. They have higher Kv, amp draw and wattage output.

So...

A delta terminated 13.5T motor runs like a 7.5T Wye terminated motor BL motor.

That would NOT be a fair motor to run against 13.5T wye treminated motors.

The reason we run mostly Wye motors is that they are more efficient than Deltas.
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Old 12-09-2007, 02:14 PM   #20
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I have no beefs with the section of the BRL rules I posted. Even with standardization, there will be differences in performance. Racers choose the best 13.5 motor for their racing style.

I do not feel Delta and Y motors should be run together except for Modified racing. K.I.S.S. Keep it Simple... Less things to be different, less things for newer racers to get hung up on. If they go to the LHS and all they have is Brand A 13.5 not Brand X, the new racer should be told that the performances between either or motor is so slight that they would not know the differences unless they were looking for it. Unlike picking up a box stock motor and a pro tuned motor, the new racer will notice and even think the pro motor is a mod motor.
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Old 12-09-2007, 02:20 PM   #21
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cant they just have a handout 13.5 at big races with some kind of tracking device/sealed can so you know that everyone was running the exact same kind of motor? my 2 cents
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Old 12-09-2007, 02:28 PM   #22
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cant they just have a handout 13.5 at big races with some kind of tracking device/sealed can so you know that everyone was running the exact same kind of motor? my 2 cents
I am sure this can happen for big event like ROAR Nationals, IIC, Cleveland, Snowbirds. ETC...

Just keep in mind entry fees will go up ~$50 when that happens.

I also agree that Delta and sensorless should be run only in Open mod. There is just no way to tech equivalency of motors at a normal sunday club race unless all the motors in 13.5 and 10.5 are of the same construction.
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Old 12-09-2007, 02:50 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Joel Lagace View Post
YES U MUST LIMIT DEVELOPMENT... in a stock class. In mod have at it. Mod is practically open. But to have stock racing you must limit development, i always hate when guys(not u, people in general) race stock also want to have technology advancements the moment they come out. Stock is about limitations. Brushless mod is not up for debate. Stock brushless is, and it needs limitations and price caps in place in order to allow stock to continue on as a slower alternative and cheaper alternative to mod racing.
Realistically, the stock BL motor development has already been done. For example, Novak's SS Pro and EX motors conform to the existing ROAR BL mod motor guidelines as the Velociti modified BL motors.

All of these stock motors also conform to the existing ROAR mod list price cap of $129.00. Since all of these motors are hand-built and hand-wound, the future question will actually be---where will the profit come from for future BL motor development?

Racers will not require a boxful of BL motors to compete, so far fewer BL motors will be sold than brush motors. More competition and fewer motors (and repair parts) sold equals less profit available for R&D.

With all of the Chinese knock-offs entering the US market, the only mfgs that have bothered to submit BL motors for ROAR approval are Novak and LRP.
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Old 12-09-2007, 03:00 PM   #24
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IF 13.5 is to be the new "STOCK" standard then i would like to see them built to conform to a set of rules. Just like the ROAR stock brushed motors have for the last 20 odd years...

Until ROAR and brushless motor makers create a "STOCK BRUSHLESS" standard its very hard to evolve current stock classes to go brushless. Right now there is no restraints on COST(a roar rule) or materials or anything, the next 13.5 could be a 11.5 with a 13.5 sticker
brushless motors can be checked with an inductance meter very easily without disassembly, thats a plus
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Old 12-09-2007, 03:02 PM   #25
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cant they just have a handout 13.5 at big races with some kind of tracking device/sealed can so you know that everyone was running the exact same kind of motor? my 2 cents
When the time comes for hand-out BL motors, Novak will offer BL motors in bulk to the race directors. The BL motor cost will be higher initially than a brush handout, but racers will need only one motor for the race. In addition, that BL HO motor will be usable for months or years to come---unlike brush HO motors.

Novak can customize the motors to eliminate cheating and help with BL motor tech to assure fair competition.
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Old 12-09-2007, 07:51 PM   #26
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Adrian i respect what your saying, but isn't BL supposed to address all of your complaints about stock brushed motors? Infact address all the issues with all brushed motors??? All of those issue you speak of are or should be non exsistant now... For me i have spend the last 15 years running club racing with stock motors, its what keeps our club alive as it seems any time mod was run guys where either burning up cars,motors or ESC and batteries... For clubs i think mod is the money pit...

But we are not arguing mod vs stock. To each his own, if you find mod cheaper and i find stock cheaper thats fine... But to the point of this topic, if all the old brushed stock concerns in relation to life,performance and consistancy form motor to motor is fixed, why not take it a step further and create the next generation of stock racing rules with a ROAR stock BL rule set, one similar to what is posted above with limitation, proper tagging and most importantly limitations to MSRP $$$$$$... 129 is too high

NOVAKTWO- we are talking stock BL not mod, So the 13.5 is a roar legal mod motor thats good, but its not a stock motor. By any definition so far. ITs simply a slow mod


Another alternative to creating BL stock woudl be for stock racing to have an add on devise (restrictor) that would limit input voltage, output RPM and TORQUE. Depending on the class or track this choke or restrictor could have various settings 1-5 that the race director could set for a particular event. This way brand xyz motor and ESC in the 13.5 class would be equilized.... Oh i know everyone one in stock wants to treat it like mod once there in the stock class. But wouldnt it be cool to have a limiter in there that woudl iliminate the need for pack or motor of the week??? Talk about cost savings and welcoming to new racers....

Anyway this is a good topic probably the 5th in as many months...

The issues are not comparing BL to B or stock to mod, but rather to agree to and follow some sort of standards in stock BL motors. Similar to or improved on the somewhat flawed(or not flawed) current stock brushed rules.... We are also asking for an exact equivilant to a brushed stock
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Old 12-09-2007, 08:48 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Joel Lagace View Post
Adrian i respect what your saying, but isn't BL supposed to address all of your complaints about stock brushed motors? Infact address all the issues with all brushed motors??? All of those issue you speak of are or should be non exsistant now... For me i have spend the last 15 years running club racing with stock motors, its what keeps our club alive as it seems any time mod was run guys where either burning up cars,motors or ESC and batteries... For clubs i think mod is the money pit...
You are right. Bl will reduce costs and fussing eith motors.

As far as mod...its not a money pit...its just harder than stock so most guys don't keep at it. Most people don't like to fail so if things get too hard they give up or find somthing they can suceed at. This is why everyone is not a CEO, Olympian or...Masami Hirosaka.
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Old 12-09-2007, 09:01 PM   #28
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I agree the learning curve is very high and with clubs or my clubs struggle to keep fast drivers and member around for a long time mod has just been an up hill battle.... But either way a car missing its corner with a 27t will likely survive the it better then one running a 6t! Tire consumption is way up too. but again we are getting off topic, im pretty sure there is a mod vs stock thread out there already

Best of the best racing we ever had was 19T foam. Huge numbers and lots of comp, i loved it.. but the one class thats always been around and still brings out numbers is stock. Love it or hate it, its newbie friendly each on the wallet and consistantly gets entries.
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Old 12-09-2007, 09:29 PM   #29
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I like the idea of handout BL motors for large events. It would be a good way for manufactures to clean out old inventory. Since it is old inventory, most of the racers would know the tricks to make the motor perform if there were any tricks. I just pop the motor in and trust that the timing was done by Ron Popiel "you set it and forget it!!!" I have messed with timing but couldn't prove to myself it was faster.

As for finding the perfect windings for stock is only getting harder. The battery changes in chemisty and cell counts are making it hard to guess which way the hobby needs to point.
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Old 12-09-2007, 10:05 PM   #30
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Quote:
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......why not take it a step further and create the next generation of stock racing rules with a ROAR stock BL rule set, one similar to what is posted above with limitation, proper tagging and most importantly limitations to MSRP $$$$$$... 129 is too high

NOVAKTWO- we are talking stock BL not mod, So the 13.5 is a roar legal mod motor thats good, but its not a stock motor. By any definition so far. ITs simply a slow mod....
Novak has 17.5T motors and 21.5T available now---based on the original ROAR BL motor rules. I'm wondering which mfg (you believe) would be willing to spend the time and money to tool up for a completely new ROAR BL stock motor design?

The existing motors work well and have been race-tested for several years. Why, and how, should the future ROAR-approved, stock BL motors differ significantly from the current mod BL design?
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