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Old 11-29-2007, 09:24 PM   #46
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Centerline - The question was "Are we at the barrier?" in terms of development - not people's driving ability.....

I do agree with you though about the speeds - TC Mod at the Champs (96ft straight with a hairpin entering) reached top speeds of 46mph. I'm sure if there was a sweeper on, we would have been in the 50mph range.... I remember going to the Champs and racing 1/12 MOD back in the day ( I think about 1994) where a 14x3 was the hot motor and would rock out a blistering 26mph with lap times in the 12.6 second range.... Now, 1/12 mod runs in the 45mph range running 9.0 second laps on a track that's larger.... I ran a 9.3 in 19T 1/12 this year...lol... Na.... Let's make the cars faster!!!
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:28 PM   #47
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Nexus - I'd like to see something similar:

Sportsman - 4-cell, 17.5 BL or Stock Motor
Intermediate - 4-cell, 10.5 BL or 19T Motor
Modified - 4-cell, Open BL or Brushed Mod
F1 - 5 or 6-cell, Open BL or Brushed Mod

Everyone can still see the show of the F1 pros throwing Mach 3 rockets around the track while not having them in the other classes to screw up the system of developement to get new faces interested and with goals to achieve that are obtainable....
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:33 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Cyrul View Post
Nexus - I'd like to see something similar:

Sportsman - 4-cell, 17.5 BL or Stock Motor
Intermediate - 4-cell, 10.5 BL or 19T Motor
Modified - 4-cell, Open BL or Brushed Mod
F1 - 5 or 6-cell, Open BL or Brushed Mod

Everyone can still see the show of the F1 pros throwing Mach 3 rockets around the track while not having them in the other classes to screw up the system of developement to get new faces interested and with goals to achieve that are obtainable....
Nice post Josh. This is the answer in my eyes........
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:40 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Josh Cyrul View Post
Nexus - I'd like to see something similar:

Sportsman - 4-cell, 17.5 BL or Stock Motor
Intermediate - 4-cell, 10.5 BL or 19T Motor
Modified - 4-cell, Open BL or Brushed Mod
F1 - 5 or 6-cell, Open BL or Brushed Mod

Everyone can still see the show of the F1 pros throwing Mach 3 rockets around the track while not having them in the other classes to screw up the system of developement to get new faces interested and with goals to achieve that are obtainable....
Man that's an awesome class list. I guess the question would be where does Lipo fit in? Especially with Orion, Schumacher, maybe Reedy, Trinity and others selling and/or releasing 7.4 packs like the Carbon 32/3600, 4800, Core 5000, etc.

4cell is definitely nice and hopefully it catches on. We run it in Trans Am Class now :P

As for the barrier....Hmmm there are many barriers and as we reach each one a new one is created.
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:42 PM   #50
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XRay and Tamiya have been talking up making the cars easier to setup, and more forgiving in changing conditions. I'm not sure if those kinds of changes are easily visible to the naked eye, but it's certainly something that can be appreciated by racers at all levels. I've also noticed talk recently about optimizing cars for use with spec rubber tires that don't have tons of traction. Just because those types of changes aren't visually impressive doesn't mean they aren't a big deal, especially to the layman that's not a professional driver or setup man. New drivers can become easily frustrated if their car doesn't work right. Making the cars more forgiving to how a beginning sets it up will go a long way toward keeping people interested.

Why would companies radically depart from what they're doing and what works? Many of the cars you see today are built upon several generations of refinement, and have arrived at their current state through tons of testing and development. Most of the cars are equal enough that they can win on any given day in the hands of the pro drivers. Why would you walk away from that?
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:48 PM   #51
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Nexus - With Lipo then there would need to be a motor adjustment:

Sportsman - Silver Can or maybe 21.5/23.5 BL
Intermediate - Stock Motor or 17.5 BL
Modified - 19T or 10.5 BL
F1 - Open BL or Brushed Mod

Upon looking at this line-up I kinda like the idea of this more as it would also cross over to the 1/12 classes helping slow them down as well.

With the order like this the next comment is where does Masters fall in.... I don't think it should. Have an additional podium finish in each class (bar F1) for the top finishing drivers over say 35-40 and then do another additional podium for those 18 and younger. Again, a goal to shoot for being the best in your age range no matter what class.
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:50 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Cyrul View Post
Centerline - The question was "Are we at the barrier?" in terms of development - not people's driving ability.....

I do agree with you though about the speeds - TC Mod at the Champs (96ft straight with a hairpin entering) reached top speeds of 46mph. I'm sure if there was a sweeper on, we would have been in the 50mph range.... I remember going to the Champs and racing 1/12 MOD back in the day ( I think about 1994) where a 14x3 was the hot motor and would rock out a blistering 26mph with lap times in the 12.6 second range.... Now, 1/12 mod runs in the 45mph range running 9.0 second laps on a track that's larger.... I ran a 9.3 in 19T 1/12 this year...lol... Na.... Let's make the cars faster!!!
Josh, I wasn't slamming or bashing. I guess from my perspective of club racing, twice a week at two different tracks, I see noobs come in with a brushless that they ran in their cul-de-sac and expect to run laps with those who have been turning laps with a pt for the better part of a few years.

I have to say, to 'watch' a FT driver at a large event is awe-inspiring and extremely fun...man, if he only had more speed...imagine the crowd pleasing!

I guess from my perspective, its the daily grind at the local tracks, not the twice a year national events that need to be toned down to fit the track size and skill level of those racing.

Great debate!

Regards,
Allan
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:52 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Nexus View Post
Man that's an awesome class list. I guess the question would be where does Lipo fit in? Especially with Orion, Schumacher, maybe Reedy, Trinity and others selling and/or releasing 7.4 packs like the Carbon 32/3600, 4800, Core 5000, etc.

4cell is definitely nice and hopefully it catches on. We run it in Trans Am Class now :P

As for the barrier....Hmmm there are many barriers and as we reach each one a new one is created.

Darn you beat me to it

I currently run 4cell oval. but yea what about all thoes LiPo's ??? orion SPEC 3200
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:55 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Josh Cyrul View Post
Nexus - With Lipo then there would need to be a motor adjustment:

Sportsman - Silver Can or maybe 21.5/23.5 BL
Intermediate - Stock Motor or 17.5 BL
Modified - 19T or 10.5 BL
F1 - Open BL or Brushed Mod

Upon looking at this line-up I kinda like the idea of this more as it would also cross over to the 1/12 classes helping slow them down as well.

With the order like this the next comment is where does Masters fall in.... I don't think it should. Have an additional podium finish in each class (bar F1) for the top finishing drivers over say 35-40 and then do another additional podium for those 18 and younger. Again, a goal to shoot for being the best in your age range no matter what class.

Nevermind

This i see might work.
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:57 PM   #55
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Centerline - Totally understand. We have noobs here that bought a BL 4.5 LRP system from another shop (great sell morons) and came to us to race. They blew a part their cars and everyone elses the first day. We since have turned the throttle down to 25% and each day they get better we up it 5%. Now, they just bought 17.5's and are having a good time....
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Old 11-29-2007, 10:02 PM   #56
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Why does TC have to be all wheel drive? Why not make them two wheel drives? That would reduce costs, slow the cars down and generate some new designs. You can keep the rubber tires, independent suspension, four shocks, etc; just reduce the drive train complications. That change would also help with speed controls over heating and batteries stressed beyond specifications. And don't tell me that the cars will not work. Given enough testing and design changes, it would only be a matter of time before the loss in speed would be made up but the cost would not be there.
...now you're reading my mind..........i as going to take my old TC3 and remove all the front drive parts...add HPI vintage Camaro body and torque thrust wheels and rubbers and blamo.........Trans-Am racing like some guys on here are doing...........
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Old 11-29-2007, 10:08 PM   #57
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The lipo/brushless trend making the cars being too fast to drive well is the best thing to happen to this hobby ever. It makes mod the true spec class. nobody can complain about someone having better batteries, motor sponsors, cheating etc. It is now the only class that is finally truly about driving and knowlege.

What other form of motorsport will allow you to compete at the highest level with equal equipment for under $2000? NONE! Period.

Slowing the cars down is easy. Making them fast without breaking the bank has not been for 20 years. Now it's finally here and people beetch. Very lame.

It's like buying a ferrari and complaining it's too fast. wah wah wah.

If it's too fast your too old. I say crank it up to 11 and leave it. I'm waiting for Roar to allow 11.1 V lipos in mod. Another step forward..

Flame away newbies.
...yeah, remember the good ol days of 7 cells in aluminum rc10's lets have one stock class for career sandbaggers and modified/open/unlimited.....
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Old 11-29-2007, 10:14 PM   #58
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If you guys really want to seperate it out and leave the "pros" running at Mach 3 then make a "F1" class for the pro's to compete in and DO NOT let any pro who is signed up (or ranked) in the F1 catagory, race in any of the other classes.... That would totally change the complection of these major races and I think give racers a reason to attend rather than watching the same pro's or stock ringer's win each race....
..i agree, win x amount of times in "stock" and you must move up. I would rather finish 5th in B-main in modified at a national than win every time in stock....If you know you're going to clean house in stock all the time, why in the hell would you race at all?? I started 1/8 on-road this year at a local track and had my ass handed to me.........but so what....it was still fun.......if i had cleaned house at the first race i went to i would have quit..............give yourself something to shoot for instead of taking the sure thing.............the sure thing is laziness.............
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Old 11-29-2007, 11:33 PM   #59
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Cars are reaching a point where development is slowing, i think everyone agrees and can see the rate of change.

Batteries have been slowing down, with the exception of Lipo development, how long till we see lipo in TC? that would certinally change Tc design! and maybe we can go to longer races then!

The one thing that hasnt really changed though is motor size, we are still utilizing 540size motors. Even with B/less development!
And now we have 5 cell and options down to a 2.5 turn! insane

but no one has mentioned anything about changing CAN SIZE!
This would force massive changes in chassis development, and force rules, weights to be changed, ESC's to change, and again we could start the evolutionary process again till we reach the same place we are now......

But are we trying to force change here?

To JOSH CYRUL, has there ever been any manufactures try different can sizes or configurations?

Better seperation of classes is needed, i think most clubs would agree. My local club does their bit by basing classes around a spec motor. We run 2 classes using a 19t, and a basic 27 (Peak/orion core element/hellfire)

And an popular class uses 1900 NICAD battereries with open motor. try and last 5 min with a 10 double using those batteries! The most people can do is to be very smooooooth with say a 14 triple.

These 3 classes are our biggest and most stable we have ever had!



Im all for longer races and B/less combos, bring it on.

Cheers


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Old 11-29-2007, 11:35 PM   #60
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Guys, perhaps you need to take a step back and think about why 1/8th scale buggy is the most popular class in all of r/c. Heres a hint, it has something to due with pit time. 1/8th scale buggies are bullet proof, you have unlimited power, & you have long run times. Li//bl can offer all of this. A 10kmah 2s lipo will weigh the same as any 6cell stick your using today. Oh yeah, there should not be multiple classes. There should only be li//bl sportsman & li//bl pro. All classes are any battery & motor config in the current weight & dimension specs. This will allow people to run setups that are too fast. This means that mod will become a true spec class and there will no longer be unfair advantages. Perhaps the rules are what is really hurting racing. In the end more track time is the ultimate goal. If you think bullet proof cars are going to result in less money then just take a look at 1/8th scale and tell me how little money that market is generating.
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