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Old 11-29-2007, 01:16 PM   #31
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A lot of people is thinking to drive faster...problably people should be thinking about driving longer.

Why do people make a lot of miles to go to a race track? To drive, of course. And then you drive 5 minutes and you go home? 5 minutes even 6 times in the day makes 30 minutes of driving.

If what brings people to the hobby in the fun of driving so why don't we allow that? making the races 10 minutes long, or 12 minutes long. With new technology everybody can do that even with modified motors (forget NiMh cells).

I really believe this should be the way to go, and that is why i think is so stupid the change for 5 NiMh cells that in fact allows the same speed but with less time to drive.

Let people drive and they will came to the hobby.

Last edited by PDM; 11-30-2007 at 08:25 AM.
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Old 11-29-2007, 01:29 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Taylorm View Post
...........how about a carbon fiber chassis with built in lipo battery sandwiched between layers?............Super low cg.........
Dude stop reading my mind. I was thinking about different configs when reading this forum. When lipo becomes the norm, car designs will change radically. The only reason we stack the cells is because they will fit where nimh cells go.



Lipo cells are less than 1cm thick. Think of the designs if you had 2 cells side by side....so no we have not reached a barrier in car design.
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Old 11-29-2007, 02:00 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by billjacobs View Post
I think the original 415 layout (what 90% of the tc's are based on) is the optimal design for nimh. It is certainly the most free and open. Having the batteries down the middle forces compromises; 3 belts or very short a-arms, etc. Also the 415 layout is equally good at belt or shaft drive, in terms of layout.
i believe you mean the layout yokomo came out with on the MR4-TC? tamiya was still prototyping the 414x at the time and that car had saddle packs.

i think TC design has evolved to a high degree under the current rules the design philosophies. such a high degree that most chassis designs are becoming very similar and basically reaching the same conclusion.

losi started down a good path with the jrxs and type r, but unfortunately i have a feeling that it will end with the type r. the TM car looks interesting, but more like the offspring from a type-r hammering a '007 from behind to hard and should probably have been aborted.
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Old 11-29-2007, 02:11 PM   #34
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The pro3 had 2 belts.

Snowy.
Why does TC have to be all wheel drive? Why not make them two wheel drives? That would reduce costs, slow the cars down and generate some new designs. You can keep the rubber tires, independent suspension, four shocks, etc; just reduce the drive train complications. That change would also help with speed controls over heating and batteries stressed beyond specifications. And don't tell me that the cars will not work. Given enough testing and design changes, it would only be a matter of time before the loss in speed would be made up but the cost would not be there.
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Old 11-29-2007, 02:30 PM   #35
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I think the cars have reached a point where the improvements are getting to be incremental at best. The next big changes might not have anything to do with the cars. It will be the tracks and surfaces and tires.

Maybe its too much to ask, but how about foam tires that last as long a rubber tires or rubber tires that have the grip of foams running on a high traction surface that most clubs can actually afford.
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Old 11-29-2007, 04:58 PM   #36
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The lipo/brushless trend making the cars being too fast to drive well is the best thing to happen to this hobby ever. It makes mod the true spec class. nobody can complain about someone having better batteries, motor sponsors, cheating etc. It is now the only class that is finally truly about driving and knowlege.

What other form of motorsport will allow you to compete at the highest level with equal equipment for under $2000? NONE! Period.

Slowing the cars down is easy. Making them fast without breaking the bank has not been for 20 years. Now it's finally here and people beetch. Very lame.

It's like buying a ferrari and complaining it's too fast. wah wah wah.

If it's too fast your too old. I say crank it up to 11 and leave it. I'm waiting for Roar to allow 11.1 V lipos in mod. Another step forward..

Flame away newbies.
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Old 11-29-2007, 05:35 PM   #37
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First things first, I realize that this whole discussion about ways to level the playing field for everyone is a bit off the topic from the original post. Should anyone like to do so, we can start a new thread for this discussion.

Now, I don't think speed is a bad thing. As was stated, the mod class is about as level a power playing field as one can have. That said, however, I don't see a lot of tracks or sanctioning bodies doing away with stock, 19T, 23T or whatever motor classes there are.

What I think Allan and I were trying to get at was that we should be able to have the OPTION to create a truly level stock (beginner, sportsman, whatever you want to call it) class where it might not be the fastest, but the competition is close and fun.

I think it's an interesting concept, and think it may have some good merits. It's not for everyone. I would never expect it to replace open mod as a class or anything like that. I do think that it would be a good addition to our hobby, however.
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Old 11-29-2007, 07:03 PM   #38
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It's racing... there is no such thing as a barrier or limit. There may not be any huge surges past that barrier as there has been the past few years as a lot of development and testing has been done. Now, small refinements will be made that will push the bar higher and higher. This is also why you will see certain cars excel on certain track types/traction levels as everything becomes more refined and specialized.

Look at the other classes out there in on-road and off-road... There has been new products and small develpments but for the most part it's the same basic systems. TC is the newest catagory and now it's reaching a leveling point in development where a major change will be .5-2mm....

As far as slowing the cars down... They should be slowed dramatically to where the classes are sportsman, intermediate and modified. The largest class should be intermediate because sportsman is simply too slow to keep the attention of the seasoned racer who isn't comfortable racing the speeds of modified. Modified does not need to run as fast as a nitro GP car on a 100ft indoor carpet track!! If you guys really want to seperate it out and leave the "pros" running at Mach 3 then make a "F1" class for the pro's to compete in and DO NOT let any pro who is signed up (or ranked) in the F1 catagory, race in any of the other classes.... That would totally change the complection of these major races and I think give racers a reason to attend rather than watching the same pro's or stock ringer's win each race....
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Old 11-29-2007, 07:21 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Josh Cyrul View Post
It's racing... there is no such thing as a barrier or limit.
There is a limit when the track is 36x58 and there are recoils with brushless/lipos barreling down the straight and right into the end wall because the driver can't control the car and let off the throttle long enough to make the turn.

By themselves, I really don't care who trashes their car.

My problem is with those drivers bashing every other car on the track because they can't control the throttle. Or with the marshall in the corner at the end of the straight who has to duck and cover every time parts start flying.

There aren't enough cars to justify a spec class from a mod class. And, if you have one and not the other, then 1/2 of the drivers won't race.

It's the same old Chicken and Egg thing.

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Old 11-29-2007, 07:30 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by The Rev View Post
The lipo/brushless trend making the cars being too fast to drive well is the best thing to happen to this hobby ever. It makes mod the true spec class. nobody can complain about someone having better batteries, motor sponsors, cheating etc. It is now the only class that is finally truly about driving and knowlege.

What other form of motorsport will allow you to compete at the highest level with equal equipment for under $2000? NONE! Period.

Slowing the cars down is easy. Making them fast without breaking the bank has not been for 20 years. Now it's finally here and people beetch. Very lame.

It's like buying a ferrari and complaining it's too fast. wah wah wah.

If it's too fast your too old. I say crank it up to 11 and leave it. I'm waiting for Roar to allow 11.1 V lipos in mod. Another step forward..

Flame away newbies.
The cars are too fast as it is. That's why we get so many new guys beating a path to the hobby shop /sarcasm

Rob, racing since 1988
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Old 11-29-2007, 07:32 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Josh Cyrul View Post
It's racing... there is no such thing as a barrier or limit. There may not be any huge surges past that barrier as there has been the past few years as a lot of development and testing has been done. Now, small refinements will be made that will push the bar higher and higher. This is also why you will see certain cars excel on certain track types/traction levels as everything becomes more refined and specialized.

Look at the other classes out there in on-road and off-road... There has been new products and small develpments but for the most part it's the same basic systems. TC is the newest catagory and now it's reaching a leveling point in development where a major change will be .5-2mm....

As far as slowing the cars down... They should be slowed dramatically to where the classes are sportsman, intermediate and modified. The largest class should be intermediate because sportsman is simply too slow to keep the attention of the seasoned racer who isn't comfortable racing the speeds of modified. Modified does not need to run as fast as a nitro GP car on a 100ft indoor carpet track!! If you guys really want to seperate it out and leave the "pros" running at Mach 3 then make a "F1" class for the pro's to compete in and DO NOT let any pro who is signed up (or ranked) in the F1 catagory, race in any of the other classes.... That would totally change the complection of these major races and I think give racers a reason to attend rather than watching the same pro's or stock ringer's win each race....
Josh Cyrul dropping SCIENCE on your assses
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Old 11-29-2007, 08:00 PM   #42
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I dont think people should complain about the gear. Cars are plenty fast. Drivers on the other hand.... Too many fast cars in the hands of wrong people. Look at all those enzos already crashed... just my 2 cents.
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Old 11-29-2007, 08:24 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Josh Cyrul View Post
If you guys really want to seperate it out and leave the "pros" running at Mach 3 then make a "F1" class for the pro's to compete in and DO NOT let any pro who is signed up (or ranked) in the F1 catagory, race in any of the other classes.... That would totally change the complection of these major races and I think give racers a reason to attend rather than watching the same pro's or stock ringer's win each race....
I completely agree.
This seems like a rerun, when I took a break from RC 10 years ago talk of a ranking system for regional and National level events to prevent the Pro's from dominating the Stock class and to prevent the Sportsman from wrecking the pro runs. While this won't completely level everything it may create an environment where people have a desire to race (or tracks to hold) local qualifing events. Most other sports have a hirearchy. I also race bikes and I had to progress from a Category 5 up to a Category 3 and I can't dream of racing against Lance unless I earn the appropriate Rating of Pro, nor would he be permited to drop down to my class.
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:09 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Josh Cyrul View Post
It's racing... there is no such thing as a barrier or limit. There may not be any huge surges past that barrier as there has been the past few years as a lot of development and testing has been done. Now, small refinements will be made that will push the bar higher and higher. This is also why you will see certain cars excel on certain track types/traction levels as everything becomes more refined and specialized.

Look at the other classes out there in on-road and off-road... There has been new products and small develpments but for the most part it's the same basic systems. TC is the newest catagory and now it's reaching a leveling point in development where a major change will be .5-2mm....

As far as slowing the cars down... They should be slowed dramatically to where the classes are sportsman, intermediate and modified. The largest class should be intermediate because sportsman is simply too slow to keep the attention of the seasoned racer who isn't comfortable racing the speeds of modified. Modified does not need to run as fast as a nitro GP car on a 100ft indoor carpet track!! If you guys really want to seperate it out and leave the "pros" running at Mach 3 then make a "F1" class for the pro's to compete in and DO NOT let any pro who is signed up (or ranked) in the F1 catagory, race in any of the other classes.... That would totally change the complection of these major races and I think give racers a reason to attend rather than watching the same pro's or stock ringer's win each race....

OVRCCC has been 'experimenting' with a similar class splitting
Pro Stock
Stock
Sportsman
& Mod
with a lap cutoff [32 @ 5:00 =Pro]
generally it take 6-12 months to move up from Sportsman [newbie] to Stock. and then depending on skill level & dedication to the sport, some will move up from Stock to Pro Stock

BUT! we also allow brushless & Lipo in any class! yeah it will make anyone faster, but it also makes you work on your driving skills & setup
We're Lucky to have some really good racers in the 'area' [Mo Denton, Chris Young, World renowned Clark Smith, Keith Allen ect ect] and ALL of these guys help the less skilled with setup tips & driving tips. this is where the Fun part comes in, when you see yourself gettting better!!! & more Competitive!!
TOO FAST??? 3.5 brushless in a Penguin TC-3!!! and a 5.5 brushless in a experimental TC-3 outlaw oval!! [old skool!!]

Thankx, Speedy Bill
never too old to race!!!
[but maybe too old to win!LOL!]
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:18 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Josh Cyrul View Post
It's racing... there is no such thing as a barrier or limit. There may not be any huge surges past that barrier as there has been the past few years as a lot of development and testing has been done. Now, small refinements will be made that will push the bar higher and higher. This is also why you will see certain cars excel on certain track types/traction levels as everything becomes more refined and specialized.

Look at the other classes out there in on-road and off-road... There has been new products and small develpments but for the most part it's the same basic systems. TC is the newest catagory and now it's reaching a leveling point in development where a major change will be .5-2mm....

As far as slowing the cars down... They should be slowed dramatically to where the classes are sportsman, intermediate and modified. The largest class should be intermediate because sportsman is simply too slow to keep the attention of the seasoned racer who isn't comfortable racing the speeds of modified. Modified does not need to run as fast as a nitro GP car on a 100ft indoor carpet track!! If you guys really want to seperate it out and leave the "pros" running at Mach 3 then make a "F1" class for the pro's to compete in and DO NOT let any pro who is signed up (or ranked) in the F1 catagory, race in any of the other classes.... That would totally change the complection of these major races and I think give racers a reason to attend rather than watching the same pro's or stock ringer's win each race....
Nice statement and good to hear that from a FT type peep.

Sportsman - 4 cell + Silver Can/Mabuchi type
Intermediate - 6 cell + 13.5BL + 27T Brushed
Pro - 6/5 cell and/or 7.4 Lipos BL/Mod Brushed

something like that.

Sportsman would be too slow for any self respecting semi-sponsored person to run.

Intermediate is fast enough to satisfy everyone. Semi-sponsored guys could run this class. But at the same time if they place top 3 at any two National events they are moved into Pro

Pro is full of FT guys and guys from Intermediate who have been bumped up.

Just ranting off the top of my head but I think that a structure like that is not that bad.
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