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Old 11-29-2007, 08:42 AM   #91
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yyhayyim, are you a ROAR member?
If not, then one of the best things you could do to improve the hobby, is to join.
You will get a copy of the ROAR rules and become a voting member to help determine the future of the sport.


ROAR still needs to abide by IFMAR, the world sanctioning body.
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Old 11-29-2007, 08:54 AM   #92
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Your concerns have more then one side to it. What is ROAR's role here.

Is part of it to get new people into racing ? Because Paulie, Hara, Ralph running brushed motors has no bearning on that. But the ease of the entry point does.

Lipo is another newer tech for surface vehicles that helps to make the entry point easier to handle for new racers. I just dont get the resistance to allowing new batteries, as long at they keep the older tech relevant for a specific timeframe. ( keeping the dimensions and weights in the same ballpark as to not warrant a total redesign of the chassis ).

Now is ROAR's role to keep the other international bodies inline, well , then you have a point.

For the most part I think ROAR gives direction to the other bodies ( not so much recently )

IMHO, I do not think ROAR is jumping on any bandwagon here with looking at Lipo... more along the lines of not being the Titanic is probably more appropriate...

You made one point that is spot on, It is nearly impossible to claw back rules, and that is one reason why these things take so long to draft proposals, and make sure it is the right thing to do, before pulling the trigger..


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Originally Posted by Johnny Wishbone View Post
All this push for lipo is fine, but in a bigger picture, last I seen IFMAR has not embraced the lipo, and since ROAR is only a sanctioning body that tries to keep parity between the organizations for World competition, I personally think it would be irresponsible for them to start the push for lipo.

Most of the cars we have (TC) are of Euro influence and as long as that is happening, again the lipo is not being considered in current designs, only as a temporary fix, but not a specifically desgned car. Perhaps they would have to have US/Euro/NiMh/Lipo combo cars available.

The top drivers have as much of a influence in what is selling and being run currently as the manufactuers do and I've noticed a small pull back of the brushless racers, a few of the top people going back to brushed rather than brushless. With that and some of the bigger motor people bringing in more newer technology brushed motors, it appears that maybe before embracing all the NEW, we should sit back and see what is going to happen in the next while.
I only say this as its very simple to jump onto the newest, most current fad but its very hard to claw back the rules after they are changed.

If your current club wants to run the newest and next greatest thing thats very fine, but again, ROAR has to look at a bigger picture, which sometimes ties their hands, whether they like it or not.
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Old 11-29-2007, 08:55 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Wishbone View Post
All this push for lipo is fine, but in a bigger picture, last I seen IFMAR has not embraced the lipo, and since ROAR is only a sanctioning body that tries to keep parity between the organizations for World competition, I personally think it would be irresponsible for them to start the push for lipo.

Most of the cars we have (TC) are of Euro influence and as long as that is happening, again the lipo is not being considered in current designs, only as a temporary fix, but not a specifically desgned car. Perhaps they would have to have US/Euro/NiMh/Lipo combo cars available.

The top drivers have as much of a influence in what is selling and being run currently as the manufactuers do and I've noticed a small pull back of the brushless racers, a few of the top people going back to brushed rather than brushless. With that and some of the bigger motor people bringing in more newer technology brushed motors, it appears that maybe before embracing all the NEW, we should sit back and see what is going to happen in the next while.
I only say this as its very simple to jump onto the newest, most current fad but its very hard to claw back the rules after they are changed.

If your current club wants to run the newest and next greatest thing thats very fine, but again, ROAR has to look at a bigger picture, which sometimes ties their hands, whether they like it or not.

Yep, ROAR shouldn't lead the way...they should sit back and wait since that gets so much done (sarcasm for those that don't know). There is no reason ROAR shouldn't explore the LiPo option. If IFMAR and other world or European sanctioning bodies don't want to do it...why shouldn't ROAR explore it? It's a viable option that is already being instituted by many clubs across the country and it helps level the playing field. To say that ROAR shouldn't explore it just because IFMAR hasn't is completely absurd.
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:02 AM   #94
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Tim P. is spot on in that LIPO is a great option but it still needs to be blended in with the current rules with is meeting car minimum weight....

I need to renew my ROAR membership....
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:06 AM   #95
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Seems like most people are pretty happy faced about getting hard cases in LIPO, which I can support as long as some form of anti tampering can come with it. Tech sticker, or something that will show when the case has been opened up and another cell swapped in. Otherwise you're going to have people running 5000-7000mah cells when a class may rule 3200 as the limit (or something like that.) I don't think hiding the cell in a case is really giving anyone more safety, it's just created another method for someone to cheat.

Airplane and Helicopter pilots have been flying and crashing soft case LIPO's for years and you do not hear of them blowing up with any kind of regularity. I've personally grounded my share without fire or explosion....the idea of a hard case should be carefully thought out before it's stamped for approval. Either make them so they are easy to open and easy to tech, or make them impossible to open and obvious when they have been tampered with.

Since I'm posting, we should change brushed stock motors to allow bearings. If anything it will give a little more life to stock racing before BL washes it away..
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:09 AM   #96
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Johan,

Everything is always so easy for you. Nothing is difficult. While some of your points are legitmate, others, I do not agree with. We have discussed it ad nausem in person before.

Continue to run what you like, which is not ROAR approved as of yet, and as we continue to evolve our rules, you can try to come race with us.

We are getting there.....


Quote:
Originally Posted by yyhayyim View Post
ROAR must equally make it known that they want to legalize Lipo technology, and they need to first have a serious meeting to decide the rules and standards and spec for the lipo, and then let the manufacturers know...if the manufacturers know ROAR is seriusly pursuing Lipo lagalizationa nd they want the manufacturers to meet with them and discuss specs, they'd be all over that! When is ROAR going to step it up? When is ROAR going to have its first serius meeting to decide the specs and finally declare that ROAR approves lipo with such and such specs for 2008?

Its not difficult at all! All that needs to be done is have the meeting and decide the specs for Lipo- Rick Howart and Dawn Sanchez have already submitted: 7.4v, hard-cased, easy pluggin, safe, etc...which the Orion and CORE RC, TrackPower, packs already meet and have become very popular and the leaders in such a market. What is needed from Orion, CORE, Trackpower? Nothing! They already meet the specs! Its MaxAmps and SMC, THunderpower, etc...that are not hard cased, that will have to adapt and get their packs up to spec...but the big 2-3 already have a great safe product racers have been using for years now...so why not allow them already!?

Most cars today have been designed around the Orion 4800/CoreRC 5000mah Lipo size, 'cause they know how popular Lipo batts have become, so there is no issue there either! HB Cyclone, Tamiya MSXX, Tamiya 416, Schumacher MI3, Losi Type R, AE TC5, Xray T2'007 and '008 EU, Yok BD, etc, they represent the majority of the most recent cars today,and all can fit Orion 4800/COre RC 5000mah packs with no pblms...So no need to worry about manufacturers having pblms with redesigning their cars to fit these lipos...they have already done so, which shows their a step ahead and have realized and been sensitive to what drivers want, also...

ROAR has a green light here...its simple, and it can get done in one meeting if they are serious and really want to embrace Lipo technology. Its time for ROAR to show up and really make this happen...no more excuses!
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Old 11-29-2007, 09:17 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by C_O_jones View Post
yyhayyim, are you a ROAR member?
If not, then one of the best things you could do to improve the hobby, is to join.
You will get a copy of the ROAR rules and become a voting member to help determine the future of the sport.

ROAR still needs to abide by IFMAR, the world sanctioning body.
well said!!

there are few things that i dont agree with ROAR and some that I do , but i'm still a member and I always renew my membership as i do every year for the past 4 years
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Old 11-29-2007, 10:14 AM   #98
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I don`t hate Roar and I really wish to renew my membership ...

but

I will not buy Nk-Ml battery`s that don`t last & explode with out warning....
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Old 11-29-2007, 10:31 AM   #99
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Exploring a technology is quite a bit different then changing rules instantly. Nothing wrong with exploring.

It does bring up a interesting question though, maybe the technology of lipo is really not intended for surface racing and thats why it has only been used in flying for the last while.
Look at it this way, generally a plane crash is of substancial damage many things are broken, even radio gear sometimes, and that is expected by most flyers, as I don't think they believe any parts will survive when they put one in on a full throttle auger job.
Now take your average surface racer, he hits the wall at full throttle and expects his car to be marshalled and continues on his way, or they are very upset that that fragile car has broken, so what do they expect if they puncture a hard case lipo battery, should they have some sort of damage? I would think so, much the same as a battery bar shorting out on a hard crash. Can it happen? Absolutely.
Plane/car, pretty high expectations by one group to survive.

On another point, if I where ROAR, the last thing I would do is make a reconmendation on charge techniques for either technology, as it opens them up for lawsuits, unless they put some sort of disclaimer with it. Then again how does it get enforced? How do you keep the adventureous from experimenting from trying to get what they feel is the most out of their equipment?

Wildcherry, thats your choice.
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Old 11-29-2007, 10:39 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Wishbone View Post
Exploring a technology is quite a bit different then changing rules instantly. Nothing wrong with exploring.

It does bring up a interesting question though, maybe the technology of lipo is really not intended for surface racing and thats why it has only been used in flying for the last while.
Look at it this way, generally a plane crash is of substancial damage many things are broken, even radio gear sometimes, and that is expected by most flyers, as I don't think they believe any parts will survive when they put one in on a full throttle auger job.
Now take your average surface racer, he hits the wall at full throttle and expects his car to be marshalled and continues on his way, or they are very upset that that fragile car has broken, so what do they expect if they puncture a hard case lipo battery, should they have some sort of damage? I would think so, much the same as a battery bar shorting out on a hard crash. Can it happen? Absolutely.
Plane/car, pretty high expectations by one group to survive.

On another point, if I where ROAR, the last thing I would do is make a reconmendation on charge techniques for either technology, as it opens them up for lawsuits, unless they put some sort of disclaimer with it. Then again how does it get enforced? How do you keep the adventureous from experimenting from trying to get what they feel is the most out of their equipment?

Wildcherry, thats your choice.

Changing rules instantly? You do know that people have been using LiPo in club races for a couple years now and it's been proven safe, cheaper (in the long run), consistent and the list of advantages just keep going. Exploring and testing is done..it works and it's great. Now exploring the proper way to implement it is all that's really needed.
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Old 11-29-2007, 11:16 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Desolas View Post
Seems like most people are pretty happy faced about getting hard cases in LIPO, which I can support as long as some form of anti tampering can come with it. Tech sticker, or something that will show when the case has been opened up and another cell swapped in.
Last night, I accidentally plugged power into my Orion 3200 LiPo incorrectly - + to - and vice versa...little popping sounds...LiPo is not working AT ALL but registers 7.4 on a voltmeter. Forced the case open and on the plug side, found a solder joint that had failed. Possibly a fail-safe device? Re-soldered and the pack comes alive again.

Not an expert on LiPo's, but wondering if my solder job could cause a safety issue with the pack. Will contact Orion and see what they say before I use it again.
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Old 11-29-2007, 11:17 AM   #102
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Be that as it may. Maybe the technology will never be implemented within the ROAR rules. Whether its good or cheap or dependable, if it doesn't fit in the structure that ROAR mandated as their guidlines for racing rules, it isn't going to happen.
I guess it gets down to if you consider yourself a "die hard racer" or a "die hard hobbiest" and whether whichever organization you decide to support covers you in whichever category you fall under, like it or not.
Again, in some matters, ROARs hands are tied to what they do, just by the constitution that they have committed to follow.

I hope this hasn't insulted anyone, as it wasn't meant to, and I hope it hasn't turned into a forum hijack on my part, sorry.
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Old 11-29-2007, 11:37 AM   #103
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Be that as it may. Maybe the technology will never be implemented within the ROAR rules. Whether its good or cheap or dependable, if it doesn't fit in the structure that ROAR mandated as their guidlines for racing rules, it isn't going to happen.
I guess it gets down to if you consider yourself a "die hard racer" or a "die hard hobbiest" and whether whichever organization you decide to support covers you in whichever category you fall under, like it or not.
Again, in some matters, ROARs hands are tied to what they do, just by the constitution that they have committed to follow.

I hope this hasn't insulted anyone, as it wasn't meant to, and I hope it hasn't turned into a forum hijack on my part, sorry.
Maybe this might help you look at your relationship to constitution. It is a dying art, trying to live by rules determined by the institutions we voted for. But in the world of the precious individual...........................participation is the last thing we ever want to commit ourselves to.

I admire the way Dawn relates to the ROAR rules and tries to help us realize the strength of the vote we have on the end of our pen.

Jacko

PS. We saw a non cased Li Po erupt in flame and smoke last night. It only takes a small puncture to start that mess going. MSDS sheets are hard to find and pinpoint the hazards (or not) of the smoke, other than the smoke/dust is toxic to a mild degree, it is a skin irritant, it will cause respiratory problems.

All I know is I left not long afterwards, as my lungs have been damaged by cigarette smoking for 30 years and the resulting emphasema. Not long after leaving the track, I had blood running out my nose and didn't feel too brilliant. It scares me to think of the residue from 'accident', no one payes any mind to these hazards because we're not educated on these things (same goes for Hydrides and all the other delightful chems we play with)

Simple point of this ramble is to emphasize the need for hard cases for Li Po in cars.
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Old 11-29-2007, 11:40 AM   #104
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1. I am all in favor of Lipo.... with encasings for safety. I am not buying that batteries blow up (NiMH) on their own... what I see is overcharging.. so therefore, we might have to comment on charging specs and guidelines in the book. Lipo is coming... yes, I can confirm that. I would be in favor of stating voltage, unlimited mah and hard casings... when we can get some size specs from manufacturers and chassis companies to ensure our rules are not causing problems for the industry.

2. I will ask Tim Potter, On Road Electric Committee chairperson to comment on that one. I am hoping that very discussion is in review as I type this with the committee.
You do realize that how LIPOs are charged it's really not possible to charge at an unsafe level. The chargers charge at CA/CV...constant amp charge, and then a constant voltage.

I like the idea of hard case LIPO but I think adding shrapnel a battery is counter productive, lol.

All batteries blow up because they are pushed, and in some case manufacturer defect. The LIPO charge method pretty much takes that out of play. They have some that can already be charged in 15-20 minutes to 90% capacity (large capacity cells) so they are being charged at a high rate, and safe. The power tools industry is switching to them....they have a much higher liability than we do.
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Old 11-29-2007, 12:01 PM   #105
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more important stuff to deal with... 13.5 BL?? Redoing stock motor rules?? Bearings? Lots of stuff to talk about......

Just changing the conversation... I'm pleased to see you guys want to talk positively about ROAR and am encouraged there is so much excitement about the new year in racing.....
On the subject of motors, when is ROAR going to make the Mod class an open class like most of the rules for the class suggest. I can support the limitation of can size but why not make that the only limitation? As the class remains now it is still a limited class as it is limited to only a selection of brushless motor manufacturers, not all.
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