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Old 11-30-2007, 04:13 PM   #151
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Old 11-30-2007, 04:16 PM   #152
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If you don't say anything that your ashamed of there's no need for anonymity ...
Or so it seems....
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Old 12-04-2007, 09:03 PM   #153
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I was'nt going to renew my membership but I think I might have to now.
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Old 12-05-2007, 06:23 AM   #154
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If you don't say anything that your ashamed of there's no need for anonymity ...
It's not about being ashamed... It's about not letting them know where to send the death threats to... hahaha...
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Old 12-05-2007, 08:18 AM   #155
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Default my 2.5 cents

This topic is interesting and at least all of the nimh vs lipo, and bl vs brushed flame wars are mild.

I look at LIPO and brushless strictly from an economic point of view. My time is valuable to me, and the less of it that I spend caring for motors and batteries, the more fun I get from r/c. In addition, LIPO and brushless are cheaper to run in the medium term (running brushless and LIPO for a year will cost the same as running nimh and brushed for 2-3 months.) No one can make an argument that brushless costs more than brushed after 2-3 months of racing if you are not racing silver cans, and last time I looked, silver can racing is good in spec and mini, but not much else -> racers want speed.

The entire argument about LIPO always come down to safety, weight, and rules. For rules, I like 7.4v, any capacity, hard case. For safety, I like kokam cells which are accepted as the safest, but not the fastest, but this obviously cannot be the rule, so it will have to be any cells with certain dimensions and safety testing. The only thing that concerns me about LIPO is the Hydrogen Flouride that is released if it burns. Granted, there is very little in a lipo and unless you sit there breathing it in while a lipo is burning I doubt there would be any effects, but still, the issue is there. Those that keep pounding the soft case argument, the problem with a soft case is accidental damage from being dropped or poked. I can't understand how someone would spend $100 on a battery pack and then not want a light case around it to protect it. For weight, saying that you should add 8 ounces of weight to a lipo car puts that car at a disadvantage in anything but open mod racing. New touring cars are lighter than they used to be. The minimum roar weight should be the weight of a cyclone or tc5 with small brushed electronics and 3300 nimh cells (probably 51 ounces.) This way, 4600 nimh and brushless would weigh about 55 ounces, and LIPO with brushless or brushed would weigh at the minimum. Since everyone now agrees that in non-mod classes nimh cells are faster than lipo at min roar weight, weight rules are the last barrier to true LIPO competitiveness in non-mod classes.

The entire argument about brushless always revolves around cost. No one seems to argue that brushed is better than brushless in performance. If brushless motors were $40, there would be no arguments. I love how the same people that complain about the cost of brushless are either:
1) motor tuners,
2) brushed motor suppliers, or
3) sponsored racers who would lose their free ride,
and how those same people are wheeling a $1000 touring car around the track.

Frankly, I don't think that it is my job to keep r/c suppliers in business. R/C is not a noble charity, it is a hobby. When more people take r/c for what it is, A HOBBY, the hobby will grow again.

I am glad to see that roar is FINALLY waking up and looking at the future of r/c. I always thought that when trinity releases a LIPO pack, roar will approve LIPO, guess what?

Last edited by billjacobs; 12-05-2007 at 03:50 PM.
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Old 12-05-2007, 03:26 PM   #156
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New touring cars are lighter than they used to be. The minimum roar weight should be the weight of a cyclone or tc5 with small brushed electronics and nimh cells (probably 51-52 ounces.) This way, nimh and brushless would weigh about 55-56 ounces, and LIPO with brushless or brushed would weigh at the minimum. Since everyone now agrees that in non-mod classes nimh cells are faster than lipo at min roar weight, weight rules are the last barrier to true LIPO competitiveness in non-mod classes.
ROAR min weight for TC is 53 oz for rubber tire, 50 oz for foam if I remember right. I had to put over an ounce on a TC5 with brush/NiMh and small gear.

None the less, there should be no weight breaks for Lipo. I'd rather see beefy cars that take hits.
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Old 12-05-2007, 03:29 PM   #157
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BTW, brushless is faster. All the mod guys run brushless if they can, sponsor-wise. ROAR trying to make sure they have the right wind and rules in place does not bother me, as plenty of people are running BL at local tracks and I'd rather see WELL THOUGHT OUT rules vs. just getting us into another mess because things were rushed.
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Old 12-05-2007, 03:57 PM   #158
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Default beefy cars that take hits

For the same chassis, a lighter car can take much more punishment than a heavier car because it carries less momentum.

How would you add 7 ounces of weight to a lipo touring car? A motor weights about 7 ounces. You could beef up a car with thicker arms, bulkheads, universals, etc and add 1-2 ounces, what about the other 5 ounces. In addition, if you beef up the cars, will you add the additional weight to the minimum weight?

The solution is to make the minimum weight less. If you change the min weight from 54 oz (1525 grams) to 48oz, that 6 ounces will result in less motor wear, less tire wear, and less impact damage, of course it would also make nimh obsolete instantly.

Last edited by billjacobs; 12-05-2007 at 07:10 PM.
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Old 12-05-2007, 05:12 PM   #159
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For the same chassis, a lighter car can take much more punishment than a heavier car because it carries less momentum.

How would you add 7 ounces of weight to a touring car? A motor weights about 7 ounces. You could beef up a car with thicker arms, bulkheads, universals, etc and add 1-2 ounces, what about the other 5 ounces. In addition, if you beef up the cars, will you add the additional weight to the minimum weight?

The solution is to make the minimum weight less. If you change the min weight from 54 oz (1525 grams) to 48oz, that 6 ounces will result in less motor wear, less tire wear, and less impact damage, of course it would also make nimh obsolete instantly.
Some people are very stubburn Bill...it doesnt matter if you explain things to them over and over, they're stuck in the old nimh and brushed motors, becasuse they cant stand the fact theat now with Brushless and Lipo the field is much more fair and even for all, and much easier to maintain and set up the systems and all the tricks these old timers had to learn to get the brushed motors and nimh packs to work great and which gave them an edge over others is now gone...they're suddenly not the "geniuses" they used to be, and have to learn and be on the same level as the average racer...this is course if not the majority...but some are definitely trying to keep things under the old outdated laws for cars 6-7 yrs ago...
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Old 12-05-2007, 05:20 PM   #160
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Johan,

What you are saying... is

MY WAY IS BETTER.



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Some people are very stubburn Bill...it doesnt matter if you explain things to them over and over, they're stuck in the old nimh and brushed motors, becasuse they cant stand the fact theat now with Brushless and Lipo the field is much more fair and even for all, and much easier to maintain and set up the systems and all the tricks these old timers had to learn to get the brushed motors and nimh packs to work great and which gave them an edge over others is now gone...they're suddenly not the "geniuses" they used to be, and have to learn and be on the same level as the average racer...this is course if not the majority...but some are definitely trying to keep things under the old outdated laws for cars 6-7 yrs ago...
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Old 12-05-2007, 06:33 PM   #161
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So what makes you think they won't come up with a lighter NiMh designed car if they drop the weight rule? Not impossible to do either.

The funny thing about all this, is, if LiPo batteries came in a hard case that looked like 6 or 5 cell round batteries, this discussion wouldn't even be going on. And had the initial cars been designed for a brick cell, or NiMh came as bricks, same story.

As far as no maintenence brushless goes, very true, but then again, with a brushed motor, when it starts to act up it was very easy to diagnose the problem. All I've seen so far from brushless is when they start to falter they usually take the speedo with them, but if your lucky enough it just quits, but with out sending the motor back, the ordinary racer has no way to test the motor. Sure you can measure the coils for continuity, but it really doesn't do a true load type test which is usually when the coils start to break down. Thats only the coils, what about the hall sensors, or the sensor harness itself, Novaks are built in, and not so accessible. Really very limited to what you can test. This is JMO, I just find a lot of grey area in the technology not that I don't like it, just frustrating.
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Old 12-05-2007, 06:41 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by yyhayyim View Post
Some people are very stubburn Bill...it doesnt matter if you explain things to them over and over, they're stuck in the old nimh and brushed motors, becasuse they cant stand the fact theat now with Brushless and Lipo the field is much more fair and even for all, and much easier to maintain and set up the systems and all the tricks these old timers had to learn to get the brushed motors and nimh packs to work great and which gave them an edge over others is now gone...they're suddenly not the "geniuses" they used to be, and have to learn and be on the same level as the average racer...this is course if not the majority...but some are definitely trying to keep things under the old outdated laws for cars 6-7 yrs ago...
Wow, does that mean, it was better to be old and smart rather than young and average. LOL
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Old 12-05-2007, 06:47 PM   #163
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Default weight in a car

If you have a car that weighs 53oz with nimh batteries (tc5 or cyclone), here is the breakdown of the car's weight:
1) battery 15oz
2) motor 7oz
3) tires 4.5oz
4) body 4.5oz
5) servo 2oz
6) speed controller + receiver + wire 2.5-3oz

That is 35.5oz, leaving you 17.5oz for the car. Where would you make the car lighter, and by how much. Do you think you could remove 5oz of weight from the rollor (about 30% of its weight)? Everything is already graphite and milled aluminum, where would you take the weight from?

The argument about lipo in a 6 cell shape is invalid -> orion 3200. If you mean the weight, it's silly to add weight to a battery that is only good in making min weight for racing.

The point of going to 4 and 5 cell was to slow the car down and make it lighter, lipo with a slower motor does that even better.
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Old 12-05-2007, 06:52 PM   #164
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Default who supports nimh and brushed

It is interesting that the people who support nimh and brushed the strongest are either r/c suppliers of those things, sponsored racers who would lose their free ride, or racers who have a LOT of money sunk into nimh and brushed and don't want to see their equipment become worthless.

Do you ever see anyone who has gone brushless/LIPO go back to nimh and brushed, assuming they have a place to race the lipo/brushless?
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Old 12-05-2007, 07:02 PM   #165
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How would you add 7 ounces of weight to a touring car? A motor weights about 7 ounces. You could beef up a car with thicker arms, bulkheads, universals, etc and add 1-2 ounces, what about the other 5 ounces.
Emphasis mine. Don't forget about replacing the expensive cf chassis with a beefy plastic tub chassis.
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