R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 11-15-2007, 11:50 PM   #1
Tech Master
 
mojoman's Avatar
R/C Tech Elite Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Straight, No Chaser
Posts: 1,995
Trader Rating: 11 (100%+)
Default Novaks new 17.5 brushed equivalent

We're just trying to get some feedback as to the comparison of the novaks new 17.5 brushless motor to a brushed stock motor. Your honest opinions are welcome. I cannot see how a 13.5 is at all comparable to even a righteously tuned stocker. So where do brushless motors and local tracks go next? Please, only signifigant facts about the 17.5 motor will be heard.
Thanks,
C
__________________
Casey Castleman
Team Driver: OHP / Jaco / Razor Graphix / Thorpewood
RIP The Coliseum at HobbyTown USA Frederick, MD
mojoman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 05:32 AM   #2
Tech Elite
 
UK.hardcore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Belgium.
Posts: 2,136
Default

at my club in the last practise session we had a Novak 13.5 in a T2'007 EU and it was at eas as fast as the Yokomo mr4tc bd Uk that was powered by a Orion 19T v2.

i think a 17.5 would be closer to stock.
__________________
A racecar is only as good as the mechanic who build it.
UK.hardcore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 07:13 AM   #3
Tech Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 5,360
Trader Rating: 38 (100%+)
Default

There will never be a brushless equivalent to a brushed stock motor. They may have similar laps / lap times but how they get there will always be different.
or8ital is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 07:29 AM   #4
Tech Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Rantoul,Il
Posts: 424
Default

Interesting question- I have also been thinking along those lines. I was able to trade for a Novak XBR 10.5 system. I put it in my TC- of course it walks off and hides from my other TC equipped with a brushed 27 turn stock. Even running a 2s1p a123 6.6 volt pack it is way to fast. So which motor do I get to run (hopefully) in stock class, a 13.5 or a 17.5 ( with a 6.6 volt pack). Don
DLS II is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 07:56 AM   #5
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,038
Trader Rating: 27 (100%+)
Default

I have been running the 13.5's for almost a year, and the 17.5 now for about 2 months. The 17.5 is the absolute closest thing to a brushed stock. Ya, how you get there is a different way, but lap times are almost exact. For 2 weeks between running the 13.5 and the 17.5, I went back to brushed, and the lap times are very consistant w/ the 17.5. My stocks all were fresh (zapped magnets, new f brushes, ect, ect, ect.

Go to hobbytalk.com in the onroad thread, and I started a thread for the 17.5. Lots of good info there.
convikt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 08:02 AM   #6
Tech Master
 
mojoman's Avatar
R/C Tech Elite Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Straight, No Chaser
Posts: 1,995
Trader Rating: 11 (100%+)
Default

Thanks for the input. Are most of you running on road or oval?
__________________
Casey Castleman
Team Driver: OHP / Jaco / Razor Graphix / Thorpewood
RIP The Coliseum at HobbyTown USA Frederick, MD
mojoman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 08:08 AM   #7
Tech Elite
 
Johnny Wishbone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,419
Trader Rating: 6 (100%+)
Default

Its when they start changing out the rotors for sintered over bonded that the comparisons are no longer valid. A bonded rotor 13.5 is closer to a brushed stock motor, a sintered rotor 13.5 is more like a 19t or 23t. I don't think you'll ever be able to have equivelent motors, let alone the brushless is a ball bearing motor.
Johnny Wishbone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 08:21 AM   #8
Tech Elite
 
Rick Hohwart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,935
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Wishbone View Post
I don't think you'll ever be able to have equivelent motors, let alone the brushless is a ball bearing motor.
You might get them close, and there is a greater performance advantage than just bearings. In the end we are comparing an $83.00 BL motor to a $24.00 brushed motor. Not very fair.

The only true equivalent will be motors with similar performance AND price.
Rick Hohwart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 08:52 AM   #9
The Evicerator
R/C Tech Elite Subscriber
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Irvine, CA
Posts: 4,142
Default

Consider the life-span of a brushless motor though: an $83 brushless motor will last ALOT longer than a $24 brushed motor... and that $24 doesn't even include the cost of upkeep on it ... $5 for a set of brushes, $5 a can of motor spray X how many times you rebuild it?

I don't think that exactly the same on track performance will ever really happen... it can be VERY close though... and I think the long-term cost savings by far outweigh the % performance difference you might see here or there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart View Post
You might get them close, and there is a greater performance advantage than just bearings. In the end we are comparing an $83.00 BL motor to a $24.00 brushed motor. Not very fair.

The only true equivalent will be motors with similar performance AND price.
__________________
Steve Weiss
TEAM ASSOCIATED -- REEDY -- SANWA -- PROTOFORM -- 1UP Racing -- ActivRC -- P1 BRAND -- TEAM KINWALD -- TEAM STEVE INTERNATIONAL
Steve Weiss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 08:59 AM   #10
Tech Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 5,360
Trader Rating: 38 (100%+)
Default

An equivalent really isnt necessary in my opinion. Among racers where the closeness would matter none of them run brushed motors anymore (at least in club races). For anyone else in the novice type classes the result of the race isnt based on the motor. For ROAR type races we are stuck with brushed. My guess is once ROAR approves a brushless class the brushed classes will steadily fall for 2-3 years until there is little interest in it. By that time brushless should be cheaper.
or8ital is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 09:09 AM   #11
Tech Elite
 
Rick Hohwart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,935
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Weiss View Post
Consider the life-span of a brushless motor though: an $83 brushless motor will last ALOT longer than a $24 brushed motor... and that $24 doesn't even include the cost of upkeep on it ... $5 for a set of brushes, $5 a can of motor spray X how many times you rebuild it?

I don't think that exactly the same on track performance will ever really happen... it can be VERY close though... and I think the long-term cost savings by far outweigh the % performance difference you might see here or there.
Oh I totally agree that in the long run BL is less expensive. Although in my opinion you have to figure the ESC investment into BL as well.

If consumers in general bought things based on long term cost savings, the consumer marketplace would be a whole lot different than it is.

But my point is that I don't think grouping the motors is fair. I have heard " I had to by a BL motor to be competitive". And I don't like the fact that the term HAD TO was used.

I think it would be nice to keep the classes separate for as long as possible.
Rick Hohwart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 09:37 AM   #12
Tech Master
 
billjacobs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Rockville, MD
Posts: 1,264
Trader Rating: 55 (100%+)
Default cost of brushed vs brushless

If you are talking about the cost of brushed vs. brushless, you have to take into account more than the cost of the motors, or even the speed controllers. If a new racer is entering the hobby, what is cheaper:

1) a 13.5 brushless racing system ($250) or

2) a stock brushed racing system
a) good speed controller $130
b) tuned stock motor $33
c) comm lathe $120-$300
d) brush serator $20 + motor to run it
d) new brushes every 5-10 runs (more often if competitive) $4 x ? + cans of motor spray +++++

In the end, you have $250 vs. $300 + the cost of brushes. In addition, a stock motor will last for how many runs before you need a new one? I am not even talking about the time to work on the brushed motors to keep them running in top shape and to keep them consistent. Also, who buys just 1 stock motor. Most guys have a case of them.

Whenever the cost of brushless is brought up, it is always from the point of view of the established racer, who has already sunk hundreds and hundreds of dollars into brushed maintenance equipment. If god forbid there was a fire in your garage and all of your race equipment was lost (no one hurt, nothing else damaged too badly, etc), which way do you think you would go?

I have respect for the dedication and talent that motor tuners have in working with brushed motors, but when you say that brushless is unfair because it is faster/more powerful/etc, who is it unfair to? Is it unfair to the newbie who will have a dependable and consistent platform to get better with, or is it unfair to the tuners who are used to having faster motors because of their tuning skills?

One more thing, a brushless racing system is $250. As brushless takes over, who thinks that is what it will stay at? You will always have the newest and latest, but I have no doubt that a dependable racing system will drop to about $160-$170, or even lower.
billjacobs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 10:18 AM   #13
Tech Master
 
PitNamedGordie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Highwood, IL
Posts: 1,789
Trader Rating: 8 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to PitNamedGordie Send a message via Yahoo to PitNamedGordie
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by billjacobs View Post
One more thing, a brushless racing system is $250. As brushless takes over, who thinks that is what it will stay at? You will always have the newest and latest, but I have no doubt that a dependable racing system will drop to about $160-$170, or even lower.


Losi has an entry level system that will be $179 and Castle has one coming that is cheaper than that. I can see noobs using one of those when they first get started.
__________________
☆ The Track @ Harbor Hobbies ☆ www.harbor-hobby.net ☆
PitNamedGordie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 10:21 AM   #14
Tech Elite
 
Rick Hohwart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,935
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by billjacobs View Post
One more thing, a brushless racing system is $250. As brushless takes over, who thinks that is what it will stay at? You will always have the newest and latest, but I have no doubt that a dependable racing system will drop to about $160-$170, or even lower.
In theory this is the way it would pan out, but the fact is that as long as competitive R/C racing has been around, the cost of racing electronics (motors in particular) has never come down.

Your comparison is a good one, but you are looking at it in a slightly skewed way. A beginner will not go and buy all that stuff at one, he will accumulate it over time spending money here and there.

Credit cards, and home and auto loans are perfect evidence to show that people are willing to pay a lot more for things when they can pay for it over time.

Trust me, I know that BL is less expensive over time. I don't think it is up front for a beginner or up and comer. But it is here to stay. I just hope sticker shock doesn't deter beginners.
Rick Hohwart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 10:24 AM   #15
Tech Elite
 
Rick Hohwart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,935
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PitNamedGordie View Post


Losi has an entry level system that will be $179 and Castle has one coming that is cheaper than that. I can see noobs using one of those when they first get started.
I hop you are wrong! As far as I know, neither is legal for competition. So rater than dump inexpensive RTR brushed systems, they'll have to ditch their expensive non-legal BL systems to buy an expensive legal one.
Rick Hohwart is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
19T equivalent in brushless ? Tabushi Electric On-Road 16 07-25-2007 08:20 PM
WTB: Brushless Motor 10.5 (19T equivalent) cpatel529 R/C Items: Wanted to Buy 0 07-18-2007 02:29 PM
Novaks new 17.5 motor gezer2u Oval, Larger Scales and More 4 07-01-2007 08:51 PM
Brushed and brushless equivalent ? bigair78 Electric On-Road 12 07-26-2006 07:18 AM
WTB: Integy Dyno or equivalent... ridgewaybodies R/C Items: Wanted to Buy 1 03-25-2005 06:51 AM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 07:17 AM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net