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Old 11-14-2007, 01:39 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Greg45231 View Post
EddieO of Team BR00D worked a lot with Big Jim before he died. Jim was making zappers for him I think and several other matchers out there. I don't know if Eddie is making any zappers based on Jim's plans or not, but you can try to contact him and see. These were no toys as I recall and required some knowledge to use them.

In reality tho, you would be better off using it to just keep an eye on your cells and maybe do some rematching for friends for practice packs. The amount of work and equipment to do your own matching just does not make it practical.

Greg
I've been doing allot of research and number crunching and i'd have to agree w/ this statement. This coupled w/ brushless lipo debate along w/ the number of great matchers already out there makes it tough to break into the business on a national level.

I was looking at it on a local level a way to make a couple bux to support my habit .. uhh i mean hobby. I would be perfectly happy doing this for friends or rematching cells for folks at the track. There is no real way for me to complete w/ trinity unless i went to the bank got a 500k loan and really went at this whole hog.

The new turbomatcher 8's are designed to be daisy chained and computer connected they are also designed to be rack mounted and run 24x7.

this is why matched packs cost 9$+ a cell vs non-matched at 6$+ a cell is the amount of time it takes to actually find the cells that have the same or similar numbers, the closer the tolerance the more cells you have to cycle through. I remember there was a matcher back in the 1400scr days that matched w/in .5% charge and discharge, quickly went out of business because the cost of packs was SOOOO high made it pointless, the other thing is after 4 or so cycles the cells would match out at 3 to 4% variance.

Speaking to some of the other comments i am curious as to why we don't see more matchers using 40 amps? The turbomatcher 8 can do 40 and normally when competition electronics releases an update everyone starts matching at that amperage. I wonder what the labels would look like w/ charge times on it as well?
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Old 11-16-2007, 04:17 PM   #17
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EP will sell you batteries directly in lots of 1000, the other thing i've learned is that 100 cells may not be enough for you to get cells close enough together to match properly.

So you may not have enough cells to get your packs w.in .01 to .04 of each other.

100 may seem like allot but it's only 20 5 cell packs, or 16 6 cell packs.

The other problem is dead cells, current numbers are like 1 out of 20 for ib's a little ep says less than 5% i dunno.

I've been circling around matching myself and i've been doing quite a bit of research on it. The previous poster is right on as far as the zapper goes (ep pre zaps their cells at the factory supposedly) i bought an integy zapper and i can't get the cells to hold the benefits of zapping longer than 2 cycles.

I'm currently trying to find out who makes the industrial zappers or get some schematics and make my own.
I can make you an industrial zapper...
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Old 11-16-2007, 09:05 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Greg45231 View Post
EddieO of Team BR00D worked a lot with Big Jim before he died. Jim was making zappers for him I think and several other matchers out there. I don't know if Eddie is making any zappers based on Jim's plans or not, but you can try to contact him and see. These were no toys as I recall and required some knowlege to use them.

In reality tho, you would be better off using it to just keep an eye on your cells and maybe do some rematching for friends for practice packs. The ammount of work and equipment to do your own matching just does not make it practical.

Greg
this is correct, those are NOT toys, cells go shooting across the room, ive thought about bustin it out but the storys i have heard about it are kinda scary...lol

i look at it every day tho...pretty sweet, looks like a power monster..

also not cheap.
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Old 11-17-2007, 02:08 AM   #19
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First of all there is no way that anyone can get 100 cells to match up especially not with EP cells as they are not very consistent. The IB4200s are more consistent but still 100 cells will not get the job done. Then you need to zapp the cells with a zapper that is better than what is readily available. Just for your information our cell holder alone is worth 500 bucks. The new CE TM8 is the standard for a good high quality match and it's a good improvement over the TM4. So if your serious about matching a TM8 is the only way to go.

As far as the charge time goes it does make sense but in my extensive tests I have found out that charge time is real close if a cell has the same capacity and IR.


Now on to Lipos. If Lipos ever become the power of choice for electric RC racing then I truly beleive that this will be the end of electric RC racing. Lipos in racing where power isn't an issue maybe good but in racing where power is important Lipos will not be good. There are a few reasons why I think Lipos will not be good. 1) There are to many Lipo manufacturers which means we will see improvements rapidly. 2) Lipos have a memory effect which means you will need to cycle and discharge your Lipo pack at a high amp rate to keep it's average voltage as high as possible and its IR as low as possible. 3) There are ways to charge Lipos that are not safe but give an increase in performance.
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Old 11-17-2007, 02:43 AM   #20
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2) Lipos have a memory effect which means you will need to cycle and discharge your Lipo pack at a high amp rate to keep it's average voltage as high as possible and its IR as low as possible.
Hi Danny,

I'm curious about your findings... Do you mean lipo have to be fully discharged before charging? Also, will a slow discharge increase IR?

Thank you in advance for any clarification
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Old 11-17-2007, 04:47 AM   #21
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... There are a few reasons why I think Lipos will not be good. 1) There are to many Lipo manufacturers which means we will see improvements rapidly. 2) Lipos have a memory effect which means you will need to cycle and discharge your Lipo pack at a high amp rate to keep it's average voltage as high as possible and its IR as low as possible. 3) There are ways to charge Lipos that are not safe but give an increase in performance.
1) Why this will not be good?

2) So far,never noticed a memory effect on lipos.It's the first time i read something similar.

3)Could you describe the charging ways to increase performance please?
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Old 11-17-2007, 07:58 AM   #22
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Default lipo batts

Whatever happened to matching LIPO's. Not everyone races electric r/c cars to be the world champ. Some of us race to have fun and if we are a little slower, that's life.

If I were in charge, I would release specs on lipo batteries in terms of safety, chemistry, packaging, etc. I would base those standards on the kokam cells. Then you would only have LIPO batteries that are demonstrated to be safe and reliable. If everyone uses similar chemistry, then everyone will have similar voltage. In terms of charging to gain an edge, which is a dangerous and a stupid thing to do, I would make it simple. Spot voltage checks of LIPO batteries. Since the voltage on a lipo before a race should not be above 8.4v, if yours is, you are banned. Simple.

If you are afraid of losing the nimh market, that is natural, but why should racers have to pay big $$ to keep matchers in business???
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Old 11-17-2007, 08:27 AM   #23
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I love these debates hehe *builds his soapbox out of broken chassis*

So i think in racing no matter what you have considered "safe" or accepted or standard there will be someone out there trying something to gain an edge, that is the good/bad side of competition. Happens in any and every sport (ever heard of "gene doping" it involves blood transfusions, would YOU do that for your sport!?)

Does anyone remember the trinity spec class? Or how about bolink legends? you would think in a heavily regulated class there would be very little you could do to tweak the cars for more speed ..... well.. talk to any spec class racer and you will found some pretty dam exotic ways of making go fast.

Batteries are no different, how do you think the car lightbulb discharger came about? Seriously is that "safe", i mean really "safe"? And yet big companies sold them (Deans) why, because you needed it to make go fast and win.

Dunno how many people out here remember those little paragon bottles w/ the needle that you would put comm drops in and servo tape to your car so you could get com drops for the whole race . Sure wasn't safe for the motor hahaha. Hell i had 3 looked like something out of a horror movie hahahah.

OOOO how about this one: twist the rotor shaft of a locked stock motor to advance timing some of you may not remember the days before rebuildable stock, but there were even ways of cutting the comm through the hood!!

Bashers like safe, BUT ... they like go fast too, in absolutely no estimation could anyone consider a 5 to 7 pound hard plastic and metal object moving at 50+ miles per hour safe, yet ... people are clearing the shelves of anything that has that claim on the box.

Personally i don't care lipo nimh li-mn or hydrodgen .... gimme some room to tinker and make my own go fast and i'm in this hobby for life .

And before the "cheater" wars start I always followed/follow the rules of the club/venue, i ask what is legal before my wheels ever touch the track, i like blowing the doors off people fairly. If they sell it in the hobby shop i'm running it in my car.

And before the "too expensive/money" wars start, most go fast tweaks are free. And ANYTHING you do to your battery in rc, even the accepted method charging reduces longevity big time, and there are the 1 run tires, 1 run motors and 2 run battery people out there whom personally i love because i buy all their stuff cheap on ebay or here at rctech

*soap box gave me cf splinters*
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Old 11-17-2007, 11:56 AM   #24
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I know the Lipo lovers will be upset at me as they think that this technology will end all of the issues and everyone will be the same speed. Unfortuntely that is not the case and Lipos have some issues that will make it hard to race them in classes where speed is important.

The memory effect I'm talking about is when you use a Lipo under low load conditions this brings up the IR and decreases the average voltage. You can get the voltage and IR to come back but you need to do high amp cycling. So this means racers will need high dischargers like the T35GFX or others that can do high amp discharging. I personally have tested this with the GFX at 35 amps and I'm waiting on a new discharger that will go up to 100 amps to see if this will make a difference.

So this means in competitive racing where speed is important you will need to run a few packs and cycle them in between runs to make sure they are at there peak voltage and IR.

As far as ways to charge Lipos that can increase performance that is unsafe and should not be done but guess what the racer trying to get the extra speed will most likely end up doing it anyway.


For those who think I'm just trying to protect my matching business by trying to prove Lipos aren't as perfect as thought then your wrong as we already have a popular selling Lipo pack and will be releasing 2 new packs in the next few months. My goal is to try and educate racers based on what I have found out and understand about racing.
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Old 11-17-2007, 12:14 PM   #25
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Are there any other battery matching tools besides CE's TM8's?

Last edited by Apex; 11-17-2007 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 11-17-2007, 12:40 PM   #26
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Default lipo in racing

Danny, you are correct. There are obviously ways to make LIPO perform better. The question is what percentage of r/c racers will do whatever it takes to go faster, while reducing the life of their LIPO packs, and endangering themselves. I'm willing to wager that while you have some "pro" racers who will do whatever it takes, and some club racers, the percentage of both of these groups compared to r/c racers in general is small. Most r/c racers want a reliable and low maintenance battery source that they don't need to replace every 3-6 months. Right now, LIPO is that.

I run a novak 13.5 brushless with a lipo pack (orion 3200) and I can tell you that my sedan is very fast with this combination. Plus, when you look at the lap times between classes at races, the times between stock, 19t and mod are not very far apart. This is because most non-pro racers can only use the full power of the motor (19t and faster) in a couple areas on the track. Every where else they drive it as though it was a stock. Because of this, brushless to me has meant that I don't need the super batteries, because the motor always has a lot of power, even the 13.5. I can only imagine what the 3.5 is like.

For now, I have sworn off of nimh forever because without a rigorous maintenance schedule, mine would simply not last.

I have been mentioning a proposal for a while now, and while I am obviously not serious, it would solve 99.9% of the issues with motors and batteries:
Touring cars can only run 3.5 brushless. This would make the cars so overpowered, that the vast majority of racers would drop voltage and turn down their throttle settings to even control the car.
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Old 11-18-2007, 03:53 AM   #27
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Are there any other battery matching tools besides CE's TM8's?
CE Turbo matcher which I have a used one for sale. http://www.competitionelectronics.co.../tm_6cell.html
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Old 11-18-2007, 09:35 AM   #28
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I appreciate information like this!

I've been on the lookout for lipo's for my radio's to kinda test the waters and it sounds like this is precisely the scenario that will develop memory, low amp draw.

I think nimh will be here for a while, i think there is always room at the local level for a person or persons to rematch or sell quality matched packs, as new technology comes online older technology will get cheaper or disappear this is the way of the world not much you can do about it, 1700sce's anyone?

Event he charger tech is better, the team checkpoint has 30 amp discharge for 180bux, my first charger that could go that high was a victor HI-IQsr and that cost me about 400$ 1980's money.

I guess now adays the issue is getting quality cells from china or whoever makes them in enough quantity to make matching worthwhile for you. If you buy them already in the us you are going to have to pay a little more (not necessarily a bad thing) and you can buy them in smaller quantities.


maximebeauvais maybe it would be smart for you to dip your toe in by rematching people's cells for a small fee. This will help you get the swing of things and see what you can do realistically. Not only that but you don't have to worry about the quantity of cells etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny/SMC View Post
I know the Lipo lovers will be upset at me as they think that this technology will end all of the issues and everyone will be the same speed. Unfortuntely that is not the case and Lipos have some issues that will make it hard to race them in classes where speed is important.

The memory effect I'm talking about is when you use a Lipo under low load conditions this brings up the IR and decreases the average voltage. You can get the voltage and IR to come back but you need to do high amp cycling. So this means racers will need high dischargers like the T35GFX or others that can do high amp discharging. I personally have tested this with the GFX at 35 amps and I'm waiting on a new discharger that will go up to 100 amps to see if this will make a difference.

So this means in competitive racing where speed is important you will need to run a few packs and cycle them in between runs to make sure they are at there peak voltage and IR.

As far as ways to charge Lipos that can increase performance that is unsafe and should not be done but guess what the racer trying to get the extra speed will most likely end up doing it anyway.


For those who think I'm just trying to protect my matching business by trying to prove Lipos aren't as perfect as thought then your wrong as we already have a popular selling Lipo pack and will be releasing 2 new packs in the next few months. My goal is to try and educate racers based on what I have found out and understand about racing.
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Old 11-18-2007, 09:47 AM   #29
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Danny, you are correct. There are obviously ways to make LIPO perform better. The question is what percentage of r/c racers will do whatever it takes to go faster, while reducing the life of their LIPO packs, and endangering themselves. I'm willing to wager that while you have some "pro" racers who will do whatever it takes, and some club racers, the percentage of both of these groups compared to r/c racers in general is small. Most r/c racers want a reliable and low maintenance battery source that they don't need to replace every 3-6 months. Right now, LIPO is that.

.
I think percentage is a alot higher then you..I know alot more guys that abuse thier batteries then guys that don't LIPO will not solve much because the racer doesn't care about whats safe or correct it's all about speed it has been this way for atleast 20 years maybe more..That being said I am all for lipo but know that it's not going to fix anything at best it will make it worse.
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Old 11-18-2007, 11:04 AM   #30
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I appreciate information like this!

I've been on the lookout for lipo's for my radio's to kinda test the waters and it sounds like this is precisely the scenario that will develop memory, low amp draw.
lipo has no memory effect, but after 2 years the capacity starts to decline, no matter what you do.
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