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Old 11-09-2007, 07:06 AM   #76
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Default olec is dead on

I don't remember reading where the government got involved in this, it was the governing body (big difference.)

Unfortunately, rctech.net becomes a free for all whenever anything contraversial is discussed. People throw dirt in all directions seeing if it will stick and incite more debate.

If you look at US manufacturers, products are recalled all the time when you have had a few instances out of millions of products sold. Dell recalled millions of laptop batteries, how many do you think caught fire? (I had one of the recalled batteries, and after about 2 years, the battery would get hot while charging. The replacement battery is perfect.) The consumer product safery board in the us compells companies to issue recalls all the time. I can only imagine what would happen if they ever looked at r/c.

I suppose those here that don't want any government intervention don't care if their kids play with lead paint, if their laptops catch on fire, or if their food is tainted. I guess folks in norway are different. I buy Brio wooden train toys for my kids. The original Brio are made in sweden, the Thomas toys are made in china -> there has never been a recall for the brio stuff, the thomas stuff has been recalled. Who's oversight do you think I trust?

Please remember, this is r/c. It is a hobby. With the exception of very few, no one does this for a living. By supporting junk products and continuing to buy new things because they promise .01v volts more, we encourage r/c manufacturers to release one-run wonders. This has to stop at some point.

I only wish roar was more like the governing body in norway. But we americans have our freedom to do stupid things.
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Old 11-09-2007, 10:06 AM   #77
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I admire the Norweigan federation for acting so quickly, for the safetly for there drivers.
In Sweden we are discussing it at the moment, and our federation as well as RC chairman have daily discussions with EFRA in this matter.

Whatever the outcome is, I beleve Norway put the risk into the right perspective, as we rare talking about potensional bombs here. In the middle of the pits, and in close distance to the drivers heads, faces and eyes.
I cant imagine anyone who dont feel pretty scared by this news the next time they are to charge or discharge a batterypack.
This is fu*kin serious stuff, and we better see it that way.
In the meantime, I recommend every driver to talk with there battery supplier about how to handle the batteries the best way, and forget about "yesterdays tips & trix for maximal output".
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Old 11-09-2007, 10:38 AM   #78
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Skiddins, the voltage at batteries will drop with every time of motor.

The harder the discharge rate the more the voltage will drop, as you can see if you analise the discharge curves of the batteries. This charts are often shown if lipo forums.

Being so my calculations are still right.
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Old 11-09-2007, 10:39 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Ash View Post
How did the driver fit the pink battery separater in the car?
The Batt. was in the pits charging and he was driving.
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Old 11-09-2007, 11:20 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by POUNDITRACING View Post
The Batt. was in the pits charging and he was driving.
Isn't it a bit dumb to charge a battery while it's wrapped in an insulator? That foam packaging will stop the battery radiating heat, leading to overheating.
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Old 11-09-2007, 12:11 PM   #81
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Default battery in an insulator

The battery wasn't in an insulator. The battery was on top of the foam block. The block is similar to the trinity battery stand.

I love how everyone always blames the user of the batteries, as if everyone here watches the batteries charge. It takes 30-40 minutes for a battery to charge, much of the time, the driver is no where near the battery when it peaks. Even though the instructions tell you to watch the batteries and never leave the batteries while they are charging, who actually does this?

A better idea is to use batteries that haven't shown a propensity to blow up.
Did we have these problems with the gp3300? How about the issue of the batteries self discharging overnight and going bad? Or a good number of single cells in a pack simply dying after a few cycles or new out of the box?

The facts are simple. IB and EP have pushed the limits of the sub-c shape and size too far. The result is a fragile battery that cannot handle the repeated high amp charge and discharge cycles. Add to that the messaging of the batteries by the matchers, and you have the problems we have now. But instead of going back to 3300 and 3800 batteries, the push continues to 4600mah, etc.

When brushless racing takes over brushed racing, you simply won't need the capacity that these batteries have for a 5 minute race. Since brushless is so much more efficient that brushed, a good 3300 or 3800 pack will be plenty.
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Old 11-09-2007, 12:13 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDM View Post
Being so my calculations are still right.
No they aren't.

I understand that the voltage sags when a load is applied.

I wasn't talking about the 'drop' while the cells are in use but the supply voltage, 7.2 v's 6V.

Take a DC motor, put it on a Dyno and increase it above the rated voltage, the Amps will increase, which means so does the power output.

This effect was used a lot in Robot Wars, take a 12V motor then supply it with 24V, the current will change in proportion to the voltage doubles, so the overall power QUADRUPLES and of course it's life expectancy plummets.
But the reverse is true, if you reduce the volatge to the motors, the current will decrease aswell which means a drop in power.

As I said before, electric motors do not have the same rules as most electronics.

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Old 11-09-2007, 12:19 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by clockworks View Post
Isn't it a bit dumb to charge a battery while it's wrapped in an insulator? That foam packaging will stop the battery radiating heat, leading to overheating.
It would depend on the actual material and the depth the batteries were in them but if the batteries are already getting hot then you are already in the brown stuff.

At least that way the batterys won't short out
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Old 11-09-2007, 12:43 PM   #84
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Yo Bill, not what I meant at all. I just hate to see people overly protective of a problem that has been well discussed as a known issue with the IB4200's, and then to see santioned race events suspended because of it is crazy. They could have easily said that batteries must be charged inside some sort of container to prevent potential injury until more testing can be done to create a new battery approved list.

I liken this to people forcing helmet laws on motorcyclists. We all know of the inherent danger of not wearing helmets, but we don't need people telling or worse, stopping us from riding w/o one.
They have just been pro-active in reacting to the problem, they see the temporary suspension of the racing as a small price to pay whilst matters are fully investigated. Once they have done that then he can come out with their recommendations for the way forward, whether that be the total ban of certain cells or saying that batteries should charged in an ammuntion box or bringing forward the new battery regs!

Sometimes, people just have to be protected from themselves - seatbelt laws, helmet laws, no-smoking in public/enclosed places. Why should other people have to pick up the tab for others stupidity?
In some countries, not only will they stop you from riding a motorcycle without a helmet but throw your sorry dumb-ass into jail as well. BTW if you insist on not wearing a helmet them you are a stupid dumb-ass and did you know that hospitals would call you an organ donor!

Last edited by Sinclair; 11-09-2007 at 12:44 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 11-09-2007, 01:58 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clockworks View Post
Maybe the governing bodies should ban charging at high rates?
Don't most manufacturers recommend a maximum charge of 1C?

Personally, I charge at 0.5C. I might not get the last ounce of performance, but temps are low, and it's safe.
That is the recommendation (1C) on IB's site

Quote:
Originally Posted by magm20001 View Post
the guy was only charging a 6amps.

i think for new packs for the first few cycles, its best to keep an eye on your packs (or stand back and watch it). And definitely don't charge and leave it unattended especially inside your house.
Only!!! That is quite wrong, the recommendation on IBs site is 3 - 4A. Interestingly, that is another ignored instruction - as we know, the driver was racing while the pack was being charged!!

[QUOTE=HappyHippo;3847438]
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Originally Posted by OleC View Post

HappyHippo (John Lara) has given you guys wrong information, not all racing or activity is stopped. Our federation does not have the authority to do so, nor do they whish to. All races that the federation have responcibility for is stopped temporarily until they find out what to do to improve safety. They do not expect this hobby to ever be completely safe, but in the light of recent events I think it's a wise decision.
And to be sure: This is temporarily, and concerns only federation races, with advice going out to the clubs.

@HappyHippo: Once again you are putting your own oppinion forward as a fact. I know you love to do so and stirr up a mess. On the Norwegian forum we all know you and just ignore the stupid comments you make to stirr things up. Please stop.

I have nothing to with the federation other then that I sent them an email expressing my concerns regarding the safety in our races.

Read my post again, untill you have understood what I wrote. Untill then stop the stupid remarks, please.

I wrote my post to shead some light to what has actually happened. But if you guys dont bother to read other than the stupid comments some people make, then Im not gonna waste more time here.[/QUOTE

OleC You have to be blind and deaf If you belive that you have me majority og the touring racers behind you on theis isue here in Norway,

That you so incompetent and can't charge a battery say more about you and the shop you are running

Yesterday there was activity at the only open indoortrack here in Norway and most of the 12 scale racers was there to drive

If you actulaly belive that this ban on racing on road electric here will have a happy ending, you are so wrong, since no manufactor will ever come with a "safe" statment on their batterys, and what is so big news on the new list that are som much safer than it is today?

And on the Norwegian forum Why are you and the federation defending your self then? and in the end who's the one that most of the time has right, thats not you


Before you start to say things, you should now what you are doing and since you can't charge a battery right and runing screaming to the federation and say this is dangereus yeah that tell more agian about your knowledge on rc
This is the sort of thing that the media and the HEalth and Safety people enjoy - people giving them sensational things to publish that have no relation to the facts. By behaving like this you become part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mac853 View Post
I never heard nitro will blow up during running!
We have had a serious accident here in UK with an NiMh recevier pack causing serious injury to a driver. If NiMh is banned, then there is no Nitro racing either!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinclair View Post
They have just been pro-active in reacting to the problem, they see the temporary suspension of the racing as a small price to pay whilst matters are fully investigated. Once they have done that then he can come out with their recommendations for the way forward, whether that be the total ban of certain cells or saying that batteries should charged in an ammuntion box or bringing forward the new battery regs!

Sometimes, people just have to be protected from themselves - seatbelt laws, helmet laws, no-smoking in public/enclosed places. Why should other people have to pick up the tab for others stupidity?
In some countries, not only will they stop you from riding a motorcycle without a helmet but throw your sorry dumb-ass into jail as well. BTW if you insist on not wearing a helmet them you are a stupid dumb-ass and did you know that hospitals would call you an organ donor!
The Norwegians have not been pro-active at all. They are doing nothing to investigate or fix the problem. They are waiting for a new list from EFRA of 'approved' batteries, which will not usually be released until April. Their attitude is that EFRA batteries are approved, but they are not. They are those that conform to the dimensions in the Rules.

This is the worst possible action that can be taken. Stopping something to investigate and fix a problem is being pro-active. Stopping something and expecting someone else to produce a list of things that will fix the problem is inactive. This action does nothing to advance the situation, and make information available to prevent the incidents.
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Old 11-09-2007, 03:04 PM   #86
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SMC recommends a 6 amp linear charge with peak set 5mv per cell and a max temp of 140F.
Orion is 5-amp with delta peak of 3mv/per cell.
LRP is 5.5A for 4200, 15mv for 6 cells and a max temp of 45C.

Or you try the Intellect site and find the following:-

Quote:
(A) Guidelines on handling Intellect Sub-C NiMH pack :

Charge the battery with quality charger, and max. current 3~4A.

Charging cut-off setting : Peak voltage = 5mV per cell, Temperature <55C,
and best with timer.
[Example on Peak voltage calculation : 6-cell pack = 5mV x 6 = 0.03V]

The battery can offer high current discharge, and be good for the level of
10A+ (with Tamiya plug).

If you expect to leave the battery idle for >2 weeks, charge it for 1/3 capacity
(say, 3A for 20 minutes)

Avoid to store the battery in hot & humid environment. Best temperature
would be around 20~25C.
Pinched that from another forum.

Given that you will have got a matched pack with instructions, whose advice do you think will be followed? - , is that any great surprise

Last edited by Sinclair; 11-09-2007 at 03:06 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 11-09-2007, 03:49 PM   #87
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Cells have unknown limits. We push the limits...

I had a set of IB4200s go bang on me (charged at 6amp, from a cold, discharged state) and I can tell you its a pretty frightening experience if youre not expecting it and if youve never had it happen, or seen it happen before too. Things happen very quickly when they go ugly.

I dont think there is an answer or a point the finger of blame at anyone unless you know something was done wrong deliberately in the manufacturing or charging of the cells.

The higher amperage you want to charge at, the more you need to realise your luck is going to run out, sometime sooner or later.

as for me, lesson learnt. I wont be charging at 6 amps any more. I value my health/well being!
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Old 11-09-2007, 04:04 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowerOne View Post
The Norwegians have not been pro-active at all. They are doing nothing to investigate or fix the problem. They are waiting for a new list from EFRA of 'approved' batteries, which will not usually be released until April. Their attitude is that EFRA batteries are approved, but they are not. They are those that conform to the dimensions in the Rules.

This is the worst possible action that can be taken. Stopping something to investigate and fix a problem is being pro-active. Stopping something and expecting someone else to produce a list of things that will fix the problem is inactive. This action does nothing to advance the situation, and make information available to prevent the incidents.
You just have to love internet forums. You can make up whatever you want and present it as a fact.

Let me try: Hey! slowerOne, you just won the national lottery. Now you can finally call your boss and tell him what you really think of him and quit your job.
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Old 11-09-2007, 04:11 PM   #89
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everyone go buy a Muchmore CTX-C,

they have the lowest delta peak setting available. 3mv over the whole pack. compared to 3mv per cell for any other charger.
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Old 11-09-2007, 04:23 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by kn7671 View Post
Perhaps Norway would have been better off if the Nazi's still occupied them, as least they would have a backbone instead of buckling at the knee's because a few batteries blew up. Please, we have at least a couple packs a month blow up at my local club...

Why can't we just get these battery company's to recall the batteries and send them back to China like the Aqua Dots...
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Originally Posted by vtl1180ny View Post
How about the rest of the world grow some balls and stop buying from the Chinese, they are wreaking havoc with our economies...
How about you boys have an arm wrestle and see whose neck is redder?
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