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Old 10-24-2007, 01:09 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by James35 View Post
Wow, really? A week? I'm thinking someone is charging higher than the recommended 5-6 amps and then complains when the batteries die.
James35,

I have an ep4200 from Tags first batch. Been charging them at 8 amps. for 2 month w/ no mantaince. cycled them a week ago. 415sec. w/ 7.37v and 11.5 ir.

I also have an Ib bought at the same time same charge method plus 2000mah store charge and battery nurse. pack is already junk.

EP is the only pack I will buy know at least till they take a noise dive too.
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Old 10-24-2007, 01:12 PM   #62
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It's no different than drag racing.......Don Garlits Hemi's in the 60's would last him many many events.......now John Force uses multiple motors a event......and its still basically the same motor......a hemi, but stuff has been pushed and pushed.......so they just hope it makes it 1/4 mile FAST and they slap in a new one.......all in the name of speed.
Which is one of the major PROBLEMS in R/C Racing.

Too often mfgs. try to use THIS mentality and the hype and circumstance creates racers thinking THEY have to WIN at all cost.

Those with the BUDGETS try it..while others LEAVE because to them...this is NOT a marketing TOOL to sell something on MONDAY - IT's a HOBBY to enjoy with friends on the weekend
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Old 10-24-2007, 03:03 PM   #63
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Old 10-24-2007, 04:50 PM   #64
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While I am not trying to be a IB fan boy ... 1.23+ seems really underwhelming. I try not to send out packs unless they are at least 1.240... 1.240 is the new 1.230 by IB standards. 1.250 is not out of the question or unheard of, in another 6 months the IB standard will be 1.245+ while you guys will be buying up 1.230-1.1235's...okay, have fun with that.. Those who are willing to spend the cash and have maybe a less reliable cell will have more power on you.
Truth is, doesn't matter what the labels say. Put a few runs on IBs that have 1.245 printed on the label, then cycle them on a GFX. They certainly won't be 1.245 per cell any longer. Thats the good thing about the EPs, they remain somewhat consistent after a bunch of charges. Maybe they are not quite as powerful right out of the box, but they're better in the long-run... whether that be 3, 5, or 8 cycles after assembly.
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Old 10-24-2007, 05:11 PM   #65
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It seems a few are not grasping the point......

I am sure the EP cell is reliable......seems to be many people saying it. Thats great, awesome......congrats.

But the point is, the IB4200 used to be as reliable as hell too......hence the multiple posts from people here saying it.....just as the IB3800 was before it.....

However, IB started to see GP making a run......along IP......and now EP......so they pushed the limit.....and now we have a fairly unstable cell....

Have we seen this before? Sure.........remember the 1700 SCE? Or even recent, the GP3700, which was a terrible terrible cell......

So why does this all change?......because everyone wants to go fast, and some people will pay whatever it takes......companies see a market, so they produce an item......people buy it.......until another company makes something better.

LiPO will be no different in the end. We already have multiple companies, including Kokam stating the batteries begin to degrade.....of course, cherry claims his still run the same as they did yesterday, well.......maybe in offroad, where its harder to feel the difference, especially when you can't even get all the power to the ground anyways........

Lithium based packs have a life cycle, just like any type of battery.....is it longer than NimH.....sure, is it forever, hardly. Look no further than your cell phone or laptop battery.....while they maybe lithium ion, still similar tech......they die, u get a new one.......nobody cares.......and thats in a laptop sitting in your car, not a race car tumbling down the track at 45 mph drawing 120 amp spikes.....and again, find away to gain an extra 2% out of a pack.....and people will buy it, even if it cuts the life of the pack by half......

And of course not everyone has John Force money.......but the guys will run what wins......what the big guys run......and whatever is king at that, is what cells........LiPo will fully go mainstream the moment it can run in a big race with the big boys......

The cycle will repeat itself.....maybe not with the EP4600.......it may take over as the next cell to have.....then the EP4900 will hit......turn to crap and the new battery of the year will take over and we will all be in this same arguement.....

This cycle has been going on for over 20 years..........time to understand, it will never end........not even when our cars are solar powered......

Because its all in the name of speed.......

Of course, what would I know, I have been only racing RC cars for 20+ years......

Later EddieO
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Old 10-24-2007, 05:20 PM   #66
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And while I am not a fan of dead cells, I find it funny about people complaining there numbers go down on batteries as they use them, even after a couple of uses......

So, buy a set of foam tires......first run is really best in modified, sometimes they are one run tires......if you wanna go fast........cost, about $44.....rubber about $35 (if you buy premounted).......which as we all know are fast one run, and then progressively slower after each run......(claim all u want, its fact)......both of which go bye bye if they crack, chunk, blister, etc......tossed out like trash.

Now look at a battery....EA cells a IB4200 Factory Team pack for $50......with amazing numbers........so even if that cell lasts say 3-4 runs......how is it any different than tires? It's not, its a disposable item, just like a tires......

Batteries ever since the GP3300 and the advent of LiPo has massively skewed how we view how long a race pack should last.........good thing many of you were not around for the 1700 SCE days, you would of contemplated suicide.....

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Old 10-24-2007, 05:31 PM   #67
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OMG! An EDDIEO sighting!!!! I thought you had left the hobby...... Where have you been?
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Old 10-24-2007, 05:35 PM   #68
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Working mainly.........hockey, playing video games.......I don't go the races much anymore, but I still keep up on things.....

Later EddieO
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Old 10-24-2007, 07:52 PM   #69
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.....rubber about $35 (if you buy premounted).......which as we all know are fast one run, and then progressively slower after each run......(claim all u want, its fact)......both of which go bye bye if they crack, chunk, blister, etc......tossed out like trash.


Later EddieO

damn every time I say a rubber tire is fast for one run i get hung from a tree around here! GLAD I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO THINKS THAT!


eddie the blue panasonics were hands down bar none crappiest cell ever made followed closely by the sanyo 1700 we used at the whip. they were a true one run cell. the blue panasonics were super expensive and didn't hold a match for one run!
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Old 10-24-2007, 08:07 PM   #70
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Hi Eddie, it's good to see you around here again. :-)

The one hole in your argument about racers always demanding what's fastest regardless of longevity is, well, our current situation. In spite of EP's having lower numbers, it seems like matchers can't stock them fast enough to keep up with demand. That seems like good evidence to suggest that there's a limit racers are willing to tolerate when it comes to fragile batteries.

If you need further proof, LiPo is a good example. In spite of it not performing as well as NiMH in certain racing conditions, a quick glance at this forum, any R/C magazine, or many local tracks reveals that people are all over them in spite of this disadvantage. Even among the "racing" crowd, you're starting to see people show interest. And the car manufacturers seem to have caught on, at least if you consider XRay and the 008 any indication.

My point is, clearly there's a demand for batteries that last longer at the expense of voltage, and it's beginning to show up even in a crowd that's supposedly notorious for not caring about anything but what's fastest.
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Old 10-24-2007, 08:46 PM   #71
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.......good thing many of you were not around for the 1700 SCE days, you would of contemplated suicide.....

Later EddieO
No kidding i remember racing a twister motor in my jrx-2 with a pack of 1700 sce's i spent 100 bux 1980's money on. Only to find out the hard way that you can't cycle them more than once a day and expect them to work.

I was pissed . Took me a month of cutting grass to buy that pack. Today i see people chucking their batteries around, charging them at 8 amps doing crazy stuff .. and their batteries still run!!

I love these new ep's much much more durable than the ib's do you think gold peak is going to fire back w/ something comparable?
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Old 10-24-2007, 11:00 PM   #72
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The one hole in your argument about racers always demanding what's fastest regardless of longevity is, well, our current situation. In spite of EP's having lower numbers, it seems like matchers can't stock them fast enough to keep up with demand. That seems like good evidence to suggest that there's a limit racers are willing to tolerate when it comes to fragile batteries.
This is an excellent post Syndrome and it really does sum up the past 6 months or so for our business. For those of you who don't know us my partner Shawn and I race as much as possible year round. Over the summer you could find us at one of the local tracks 3 and sometimes even 4 days out of the week. The greatest part of being at the track and running with the local crowd is being able to identify what products or services your average racer can benefit from. For months we watched and were able to identify that the current IB cell was failing this crowd where the utmost in performance wasn't really the primary focus.

Don't get me wrong, our local crowd is incredibly competitive but also bear in mind that these guys are running 2-3 times a week! When you race that much the economics really have to allow it and for the average guy buying new packs every month isn't realistic. The EP cell for us was primarily a response to what we had the opportunity to watch week after week. Being able to satisfy our core customers is always our goal and we are willing to do what it takes to achieve it. In this case it was simply a transition to providing a few options to racers so the choice is in their hands.

That said I would hate for people to view this as pro-EP and negative-IB, we still feel the IB cells have potential to return to where they once were. We continue to support and sell the IB products on our website to this day and just last month Steve Boice won 12th stock in Vegas running IB cells. There is no dispute that with all the negative press and nay-saying the IB cells do provide high performance. As Eddie and others have outlined here the latest version of the IB cells provide that level of performance at a cost, nothing is free.

All being fair we are looking forward to testing all the new flavors of 4500 & 4600 cells and deciding on the best options for our customers once all the facts are in. We still feel it's far to early to tell what's going to be the next best product and when the dust settles we will more than likely have several different options each with their own ups and downs. Pretty much the same boat we are all in now =)

Interesting reading here so far, I always like to hear what guys at the track are experiencing.

Take care,
Nick
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Old 10-24-2007, 11:08 PM   #73
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i am sure if IB can get the cells back to the stability that the earlier cells had people would be back for those cells. this past weekend i dusted off two of my old SHV packs none of which had dead cells. at 1.225 on the label they still had the punch if not more then my 1.245 WC cells. this is probably due to the fact that the cells are no longer 1.245. because of the power i still felt in ym SHV cells i put them in the rotation of my packs. i ran them in our series race in one of the AAA mains and i won that main, granted starting from the poll. but i was able to win by about the same margin i did the main before when running my few month of WC cells. i to am waiting to see how these new cells turn out and with the latest disappointment in the IB WC cells i am also waiting to see if they fix their problem. but i go hope that these EP cells are just as good voltage and IR wise as the IBs so that we dont have to live with a performance monopoly. it would be nice to have a few competitive cells to choose from.
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Old 10-24-2007, 11:23 PM   #74
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I dunno about hole in my arguement........we can't keep cells in stock either......they sell and sell and sell......plain and simple. Brad at Hurricane has a huge following, so what he has will sell, not to mention he backs it up on the track......same goes for EA, Express, or whoever is matching them......at times, RC Racers are like sheep.....we follow the leader and hope for the best......I sold a ton of Atlas stocks and 19t.....they were kinda fast, but blew up and were not ROAR legal.......but, I said they were fast, trav broke some track records locally with them.......we sold out two cases of each in less than a week.........now, I can't give them away......

I am not going to be mean, but some of the companies that run out of stock.......match 100-200 or cells at a time........ain't hard........I've sold twice that to a dealer before......our last order of 1000 cells is almost gone...

The EP is going to gain market, there is always people on the other end of the spektrum......they will buy long lasting stuff.....the plastic parts instead of graphite, but there will always be the guys who don't care about that.......they just want pure speed......

Keep in mind, this same thing happened with the transition from Sanyo to GP......GP to IB......and now maybe IB to EP.......we will see what happens over the next few months, especially with ROAR approvals be announced shortly.......

The point being, until the EP dominates and wins everything..........you won't see the IB cell going anywhere.........so while it won stock and 19t.......the IB cell won its fair share of classes......including those with modified in the title.....

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Last edited by EddieO; 10-24-2007 at 11:45 PM.
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Old 10-25-2007, 12:05 AM   #75
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Being a rookie I have pick up a few things from this forum. One is a few racers on here claim 3600 are more than enough with plenty of run time left. I think a bigger # would equal better voltage near the end . Even with that is this faster in a car on the track? You guys that race in classes with rules have wieghts to make. Some choose 5 or 4 cell for a lighter car. So would a 4600 be heavier than a 4200 or 3600 cell? How does this effect the car. I am a rookie with a tc4 and a tc3 so maybe I am asking stuff I dont know much about but bottom line most electric races are time and most laps wins. So is the 4600 getting more laps around the track as would same car and driver would with a 3600 or on 5 cell or 4 cell on spec teched in tires and all the other stuff ?
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