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Old 11-22-2007, 11:50 PM   #61
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Congratulations to Doug. Change up time.

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Old 11-23-2007, 12:11 AM   #62
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heh.

Normally I don't comment on threads like this but I feel I have to say something.

I have recently bought a used Yokomo MR4TC to start racing in 27T stock (gotta start somewhere huh? ). I'm 28 years old so I can pay my bills, and have a hobby at the same time. I've been considering joining ROAR for a while, but then I see posts from some of the ROAR representatives here that just makes my stomach churn.

Instead of being so defensive about your club policies and just arrogant towards non-members, maybe it woulld be a better idea to just listen to their concerns and their reasons why they have left ROAR or decided joining ROAR is a bad idea.

I fall into the latter camp. I will not join ROAR simply because of the attitudes shown here. Not only do they discourage new people from joining but they also cement the reputation that ROAR would rather spit on people than listen to them.

Does ROAR want to create a situation where the hobby of RC Racing is on the verge of collapse? Please.. for the sake of the hobby and new blood, reconsider the way you approach non-members. You want to attract people, not scare them away.
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Old 11-23-2007, 12:23 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Sabin View Post
heh.

Normally I don't comment on threads like this but I feel I have to say something.

I have recently bought a used Yokomo MR4TC to start racing in 27T stock (gotta start somewhere huh? ). I'm 28 years old so I can pay my bills, and have a hobby at the same time. I've been considering joining ROAR for a while, but then I see posts from some of the ROAR representatives here that just makes my stomach churn.

Instead of being so defensive about your club policies and just arrogant towards non-members, maybe it woulld be a better idea to just listen to their concerns and their reasons why they have left ROAR or decided joining ROAR is a bad idea.

I fall into the latter camp. I will not join ROAR simply because of the attitudes shown here. Not only do they discourage new people from joining but they also cement the reputation that ROAR would rather spit on people than listen to them.

Does ROAR want to create a situation where the hobby of RC Racing is on the verge of collapse? Please.. for the sake of the hobby and new blood, reconsider the way you approach non-members. You want to attract people, not scare them away.
Don't give up on ROAR just yet.
Cherry is a constant complainer, not just here in the Pacific Northwest, but in every thread he coments on.
The majority of ROAR members are concerned with direction of RC racing and are trying to improve the enviorment of racing in general.

If you race, you need a set of standardized rules, the manufactures need a stable set of rules to design and build cars around, ROAR provides those rules.
Even for club or major races, ROAR guidlines are followed, weight is standardized, classes are followed, bodies are designed to ROAR specs and on and on....

Become part of ROAR, and help to improve things.
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Old 11-23-2007, 12:40 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Sabin View Post
but then I see posts from some of the ROAR representatives here that just makes my stomach churn.

Instead of being so defensive about your club policies and just arrogant towards non-members, maybe it woulld be a better idea to just listen to their concerns and their reasons why they have left ROAR or decided joining ROAR is a bad idea.

I fall into the latter camp. I will not join ROAR simply because of the attitudes shown here. Not only do they discourage new people from joining but they also cement the reputation that ROAR would rather spit on people than listen to them.

Does ROAR want to create a situation where the hobby of RC Racing is on the verge of collapse? Please.. for the sake of the hobby and new blood, reconsider the way you approach non-members. You want to attract people, not scare them away.
Uh...maybe show an example or three (besides Cherry-bashing...that's a sport apparently enjoyed by members and non-members alike).

I just perused your previous posts and it seems you aren't without "baggage". You are, apparently, a LiPo supporter. Guessing that like a lot of same-such folks you figure that because ROAR hasn't jumped right up and embraced this new tech that they have snubbed you. What you do not appreciate is that they have been placed in the position ON TWO FRONTS (LiPo and brushless-spec) of deciding who they're going to piss off with their decisions. One camp are ROAR members who, you know, vote in the elections, work in the positions within the organization, do the typical things club members do. The other camp are (largely) non-members who make a lot of racket but don't do what could EASILY be done in a member-driven organization where the members generally do not vote. Develop a power base from within the organization. A point was made earlier on in the thread that someone was glad ROAR didn't drop everything and listen to non-member noise. That would be a betrayal of their mission which is to further their organization to the benefit of their membership. Name one other national organization that would do differently?

You have ZERO voice from the outside. That's not being "mean spirited" or anything else...that's fact regardless the organization. From the inside, with some organizing work, realistic expectations and, most of all, PATIENCE you can help get the organization to more reflect the ideal as YOU see it.

Otherwise, enjoy your racing. Sounds like you're just getting started...there's a lot to this hobby and a lot of people, ROAR members and non-members who can serve as a great resource to expand your enjoyment for years to come.
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Old 11-23-2007, 01:19 AM   #65
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Uh...maybe show an example
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As a non-ROAR member your opinion means nothing... I do not want ROAR to even listen to anything you or any other NON-ROAR member have to say. ROAR is a non-profit organization and its people's choice whether or not to join. It should listen to its membership not to anyone who posts demands. It like the kid that says do it my way or I'm going home.
This is the sort of backwards-thinking and elitist example I was talking about.

Quote:
Guessing that like a lot of same-such folks you figure that because ROAR hasn't jumped right up and embraced this new tech that they have snubbed you.
Swing and a miss. I stated that I would not join ROAR in it's CURRENT form because they disallow lipos. I did not in any way shape or form say they have 'snubbed me'. Please, do not assume anything about me.

You speak of this "baggage". Care to give an example yourself?

The only thing that I was in 'support' of in regards to LiPo is the fact that they lack the ability to maim people during an overcharge. I've said it before and i'll say it again. I'd rather lose my equipment in a fire than have someone lose an eye because I overcharged my pack too much.

Also, if a fire does break out and it engulfs half the pit area because no one had a fire extinguisher (which SHOLUD be MANTADORY at all race events!!) then that's not just the fault of the owner of that LiPo Pack, but the organizer who should have had adequate safety measures in place.

Like I said, I'm a new member. I come into discussions with a clear head and focus. I also like to push for new technology because I think it will attract new people into the hobby. I know I've convinced at least one person to visit their LHS because they've seen a lipo/BL car in action. I really don't want to tell them not to join any sort of organization.

Last edited by Sabin; 11-23-2007 at 01:36 AM.
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Old 11-23-2007, 04:18 AM   #66
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Oh the few that are not ROAR members bashing anything and everything they can.What ROAR allows and does not allow is getting rather old.If you and your group want to run something and it NOT in the current rules and your a ROAR santioned track or series. I suggest you who get the paperwork from ROAR look at what you have recieved in the mail. Does the word deviation mean anything? The "OLDEST" ROAR santioned series in the country is running for 2008 Brushless motors and Lipos (hard cased packs only). All it requires is a deviation noted on the form. Then you send it in .We are alos running 6 minute stock and 19 turn classes. Have been for the last year.Oh and brushless we ran them all this year- I was the first complements of Bob Novak.After seeing the results everyone voted this into the rules for 2008.
Yes this won't stop Cherry from bashing ROAR because of another reason he'll soon cook up.
ROAR is not perfect but it does keep the R/C community with some set of basic guide line to follow.Where it be the club racer- manufacturer or track.
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Old 11-23-2007, 08:31 AM   #67
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Please, do not assume anything about me.
And in your haste to find offense you COMPLETELY overlooked the use of "guessing". If I guessed wrong, I guessed wrong but I made ZERO assumptions about you or anyone else. What I DID do was find your personal axe. Like Cherry, you completely eliminate ANY influence you might have in changing the organization by refusing to join until it changes to suit your ideal. And, having guessed spot-on the comment to which you took umbrage, I point out again that it is 100% correct...ANY organization that caters to the desire of people who do not belong and does so against the wishes of those who ARE members IS a problem organization. I know very few "ROAR people" who zealously want LiPo batteries adopted. YOU can change that. I know more of them who want Brushless included but they don't yet constitute a majority.

Like it or not, ANY organization whether it's ROAR, AMA, AKC, etc have certain rules and requirements that a sizeable portion of it's membership wishes would change. What the organization faces is which faction of it's membership does it upset.

I'm a racer...I enjoy traveling to events, sometimes at fair distance, to race with folks outside my little insular group. And when I go you can bet I don't bellyache about what classes they run or what rules they run. I'm headed to Denver (8-hours each way) this weekend just to run in a 1-day club race. They run brushless, I run brushed because that's all our club runs (other than Mod). Guess what, I'll go anyway and have a great time. Then next month I'll go race in Minot with a club that's been getting a fair bit of grief over not running brushless from a few folks who VISIT them for this big event each Christmastime. Not from our group...like always we'd race with them regardless what they were running if it were in our capabilities. As it happens, they pretty much match our rules to a T.

What allows you to travel with confidence and know that other than something little like a motor or whatever you can race with pretty much any group in the country? Yup, a basic framework of rules provided by an organization. ROAR. I'll break out my slotcar analogy again. Slotcars were HUGE in the '60's, far far far bigger than RC ever has or, likely, ever will be. One of the things that killed it was that no one would agree on uniform set of rules that didn't exactly match what their particular club was doing. So now it's virtually an underground hobby made up of pockets of mainly of grey-haired men. It almost doesn't exist, managing to hang on year after year despite itself. And even with these VERY few participants there are at least 4 national sanctioning bodies I'm aware of, and even then half the clubs are "outlaw" clubs. If you want to go race anywhere it isn't a matter of bolting in a different ESC or motor...you have to build a completely different car. And I'm here to tell you that a 1/32 Eurosport slotcar with motor costs about what a 1/12 chassis w/electronics does and takes a LOT longer to build (solder up).

Finally, love 'em or hate 'em, ROAR is the only game going. No one is ready to spend what it takes in either time or effort to create an alternative. Why? Because anybody who might do so recognizes that a) the perfect organization does not exist. Never has. and b) the few shortcomings of the incumbent organization aren't so onerous as to require replacement. The investment of time and money to homologate motors, batteries, etc is substantial but it is a neccessary expenditure if you wish to maintain a reasonably level playing field.

I first joined ROAR in 1986...and do you know what, people were sniping at them non-stop back then and have been since. People were predicting the demise, from within or from without, back then too. They even had a "scandal". But here we are more than 20 years later and ROAR is still the sanctioning body everyone looks to for guidance. Guess they can't be THAT screwed up.
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Old 11-23-2007, 08:39 AM   #68
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so when are the nationals going to be announced
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Old 11-23-2007, 10:37 AM   #69
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My defence..

I do not bash Roar or any of the people that help organize it...

I critic only Roar policy`s...


I`m not one who say Roar suck`s or other methods use to bash Roar....
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Old 11-23-2007, 01:03 PM   #70
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Need ROAR of new blood?

When I read some words in this topic after having read ROAR rules I have to assume I have a serious problem with my english. Let's see:

Someone says:
"If you race, you need a set of standardized rules, the manufactures need a stable set of rules to design and build cars around, ROAR provides those rules."

I say you are joking, right? If ROAR want to set rules for manufactures just need to say "motor of 540 size are allowed" and they know the space and weight needed in the cars.
What ROAR says is: you can use the motor of this manufacturer and you are not allowed to use that one of that manufacturer, just because one is friend of ROAR and the other no. Friend means the one that pays? Of course this is not said with this words, Roar set a number os complex rules that leads to this, and I believe you all know that.

Someone says:
"... You are, apparently, a LiPo supporter. Guessing that like a lot of same-such folks you figure that because ROAR hasn't jumped right up and embraced this new tech that they have snubbed you."

Come on new tech? Lipo? In what year do ROAR People and supporters live?

For how many years do you people use this tech in cell phones? in labtops?

Do you know how many airplane aerobatic championships have been won with this technology?

Wake up, please. There are persons that think brushless motors are new too, some of the biggest names in motor car makers are still using sensored escs. Once again do you know that brushless motor have been used in model airplanes for more than 8 years, do you know that model airplane esc do not need sensor cables for more than 5 years?

I believe people must show they are more up to date, or other wise nobody will believe them.

And finally I can not be a ROAR member, as I live in Europe, but I suffer the efects of Roar rules and I do not like that.
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Old 11-23-2007, 01:28 PM   #71
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do you know that brushless motor have been used in model airplanes for more than 8 years, do you know that model airplane esc do not need sensor cables for more than 5 years?
Do you know that airplanes dont have the constant use of variable throttle and when was the last time someone had to use variable braking in an airplane? Apples and oranges.
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Old 11-23-2007, 02:10 PM   #72
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What I DID do was find your personal axe
Where?

I'll try it again. I don't really care that ROAR doesn't allow lipos. I think it's dumb, but it does not factor into my decision. What I DO care about is the attitude some ROAR representatives have shown. That attitude makes me think twice about joining. Again, ROAR should be more concerned with attracting new blood, not scaring them away by being condescending to people who are not members. That starts with LISTENING. not ASSUMING.

Show me this 'personal axe' you speak of and i'll hold my tounge forever.
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Old 11-23-2007, 05:58 PM   #73
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Do you know that airplanes dont have the constant use of variable throttle and when was the last time someone had to use variable braking in an airplane? Apples and oranges.
And what have variable throttle and variable brake to do with sensors?

Sensors are needed for low tech esc to know the position of the rotor (if it is turning right or left and at what speed). High tech esc do it without the need of sensors. Just that. And by the way have you ever seen a airplane making F3A pattern flight, if you can explain me how you do it with constant throttle...

A lot of discussion has allready been made about the advantage (or not) of sensors and someone from Castle came to explain that if you use a motor at 1(one) RPM or less you would better go sensored. I do not know the speed you drive your car...but to me sensors were never needed...
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Old 11-23-2007, 06:08 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Sabin View Post
Where?

I'll try it again. I don't really care that ROAR doesn't allow lipos. I think it's dumb, but it does not factor into my decision. What I DO care about is the attitude some ROAR representatives have shown. That attitude makes me think twice about joining. Again, ROAR should be more concerned with attracting new blood, not scaring them away by being condescending to people who are not members. That starts with LISTENING. not ASSUMING.

Show me this 'personal axe' you speak of and i'll hold my tounge forever.
Whatever.

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And what have variable throttle and variable brake to do with sensors?

Sensors are needed for low tech esc to know the position of the rotor (if it is turning right or left and at what speed). High tech esc do it without the need of sensors. Just that. And by the way have you ever seen a airplane making F3A pattern flight, if you can explain me how you do it with constant throttle...

A lot of discussion has allready been made about the advantage (or not) of sensors and someone from Castle came to explain that if you use a motor at 1(one) RPM or less you would better go sensored. I do not know the speed you drive your car...but to me sensors were never needed...
Every time I do a standing start

I'll be the FIRST to admit I know little about brushless. I should have been more accurate in my language and stated "new-ER technology" in reference to LiPo and brushless. Yes they've been around a fair while in planes and other applications. In fact my plane and heli both have lipo/brushless. For my racing I now use a LiPo battery in my transmitter and have used brushless for a couple years in my Mod cars. I'll be running my first race this weekend with 10.5 power.
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Old 11-23-2007, 06:34 PM   #75
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Every time I do a standing start
Yes I agree, but during 0,00001 seconds. Nobody in the world can feel that. It is just theorectical.

And I can tell you that for guys with airlanes those low speed revolutions are more important that for cars. We in planes use direct drive to the shaft (mostly outrunner motors) and everybody seems to enjoy the propeller turning slowly has IC motor for taxiing on the ground.

In cars I use a final ratio usualy between 6 and 9:1 that means motor rotate 6 to 9 times and the wheels just one, so...no problem with those low revs
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