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Old 10-16-2007, 11:12 AM   #121
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Its just too hard to compare off-road to on-road. That being said, be carefull what you wish for - there's not exactly a huge turnout for electric off road either these days.
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Old 10-16-2007, 11:25 AM   #122
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Its just too hard to compare off-road to on-road. That being said, be carefull what you wish for - there's not exactly a huge turnout for electric off road either these days.

Not true !

Off-road is in fact receiving a up surge in attendance..

Nitro is the big reason.....

Heck !

I`m going to a race in a couple weeks & already just about sold out in advance and has hundreds of entry`s .....
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Old 10-16-2007, 11:27 AM   #123
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Off-road is in fact receiving a up surge in attendance..Nitro is the big reason

I was talking about electric off road. You know, the kind where Losi won't even send a team to the worlds because they say its too expensive and there's no interest.
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Old 10-16-2007, 11:31 AM   #124
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Off-road is in fact receiving a up surge in attendance..Nitro is the big reason

I was talking about electric off road.

At Trcr we run both and the electric`s still out number the Nitro.....

At our outdoor events we get over 60 + electric on average .....


Not saying it is as big as in the past , but compared to on-road , electric off-road attendance is far better off compared to on-road....
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Old 10-16-2007, 12:22 PM   #125
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Controlling the voltage has been talked about over the years but it's not really all that easy to do effectively. Lower voltage also leads to higher gears and more stress on the batteries.
Sorry but I do not see your logic here... Anyone that has tried 5 cells in Stock will tell you, it is better on the equipment, and it is less stress on the equipment...

To the rest, 19T could be your "Pro Stock" class, leaving Stock alone to develop new racers...

So how are some of you getting people out of stock, what is the tip you can share with us? I think that is the bigger question, not fixing stock but getting the better drivers out of stock...
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Old 10-16-2007, 12:31 PM   #126
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the answer to that seems pretty easy to me. Racers in stock that dominate should move onto a different class. Say in a season a racer wins 3 stock race for example. He should now move up. Or maybe a certain number of podium finishes.
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Old 10-16-2007, 12:37 PM   #127
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the answer to that seems pretty easy to me. Racers in stock that dominate should move onto a different class. Say in a season a racer wins 3 stock race for example. He should now move up. Or maybe a certain number of podium finishes.
While I agree, how do you get the them to move along, with out forcing them out? When you force you risk that person may step out of racing....
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Old 10-16-2007, 12:55 PM   #128
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I would say that anyone that loves racing will simply move up and would not quit. Especially after spending thousnads on these toys. If they do then thats their loss really. The only stipulation I would put on that would be that if the class above had no racers to race against. Then you have to let them race where there are people to race against.

Also depends a little how good they are. I mean if they win every week by large margins then move up, they are hurting the sport more than anything. A new guy comes in tries everything he has but gets beat by 5 laps every race.. Now he quits cause he hates that he isnt as fast. Which do you think is more likely to quit, or a worse loss to the sport? If the "champ" is, has been in really close races all season and only just won the points race for the championship, but lost several races in teh season and so on, maybe several drivers could have won it but this happend or that and they didnt. Then maybe the line is less clear cut and you could ask him/her to move up to a tougher class but not really insist on it.

isnt this what a novice class is for though??
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Old 10-16-2007, 02:03 PM   #129
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suggestion - a rule should be implemented that stock\19T use less milliamp batteries than mod.
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Old 10-16-2007, 03:20 PM   #130
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suggestion - a rule should be implemented that stock\19T use less milliamp batteries than mod.
Moot point. Battery availability in lower Mah ratings are determined by commercial battery vendors. We are forced to use whatever next becomes available to the hobby. If the sanctioning committees don't approve the next latest cell made available from the commercial vendors (albeit in hobby shrink), legal racing cells may not be obtainable.
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Old 10-16-2007, 05:06 PM   #131
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All these issues discussed seems to be a problem only with EP/TC.

Off-road EP/GP and Gas 1/10 and 1/8 has sellout events in my area. It seem that the EP/TC is having a slow death as people are moving to 1/12 or GP. I spent the last 6 months analyzing this subject. My findings are:

1. EP/TC is getting too expensive.
2. The same people are winning all the time in Stock
3. The camradery in EP/TC is very fickle. Lots of clicks based on car type, teams, sponsors, old school/new school, brushless/non-brushless.
4. Weekly club race is an all-day event for just 5 runs. People are too busy soldering, building shocks after crashes, building motors and getting that mysterious tweak out of the chassis. Give me a break. This suppose to be fun. Build your car at home and come ready to race!
5. The heats are too long. And the race too short. Have 2 minute heats. 6 minutes races. No changing motors or rebuilding once it is in the car. Otherwise, start from the back of the pack as a penalty. Therefore brushed motor will be built for endurance rather than one run-jobs. Have bump-up for EP/TC. Charge another battery and have it ready if you think you might win.

Back to the subject of Stock EP/TC. The problem that I see is on 2 fronts.
1. The 27 turn motor itself.
2. The track.

1. Motor
The 27T brushed motor has too wide a performance gap between an off-the-shelf $45 motor and a well tuned-Tuner blueprinted, freshly cut, new springs, zapped, high performance brushes, etc. Newbies and experienced racers quickly get tired of this performance gap. They either can't keep up with the technologies, tools and equipment that is needed to run up front. Or they don't have the time anymore to rebuild their motors between heats. When a stock heat is over and a driver does poorly, he quickly run back to the pit to find more power in the motor. Experienced motor builders will be successful and the inexperience motor builder/newbies will probably due worst the next heat out of frustration. This is an indication that something is wrong with the 27T motor itself. 19T and Mod have a very narrow performance gap because the cars are usually faster than the driver is able to manage. This leads back to why Off-Road and GP on-road is growing by leaps and bounds. There is more power than one can handle. The driver has to finesse the car by good throttle control. Motor is rarely discussed at EP off Road events because everyone is running Mod.

Solution: 13.5 BL.

1. The Track
Stock racers have to achieve maximum speed through the corners to do well. I've seen some terrible tracks that have 2x4 straight pieces as rails. This is a recipe for disaster. This doesn't teach the newbie to stay on line; about apex, turn in, or track out. If you come close, you will pay with broken parts and down time. Worse case, never finishing a 5 minute run. Stock class with these barriers is a bad combination. We had more fun and better competition in the parking lots with fire hoses as dividers. Safe, fast and easy on parts.

Solution: Smooth, flowing engineered curves. Low profile barriers that are forgiving. 13.5 BL
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Old 10-16-2007, 08:17 PM   #132
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Quote:
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The 27T brushed motor has too wide a performance gap between an off-the-shelf $45 motor and a well tuned-Tuner blueprinted, freshly cut, new springs, zapped, high performance brushes, etc. Newbies and experienced racers quickly get tired of this performance gap.
Would a motor claiming rule help resolve this? Or how about handout motors (rent-a-motor)? All stock motors are drawn blindly from a pool of motors...

Unfortunately, this also fails to take into account the difference in batteries between the haves and have nots, like "Sport" packs and "Team" packs.
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Old 10-16-2007, 08:31 PM   #133
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Put a price limit on the important items in a novice class and not only will newbies not race against the big wallets, but cherry picking will not invade the class either.

$XXX limit on chassis kit
$XX limit on stick packs
$XX limit on motor (either BD or BL)
$XXX limit on ESC
$XXX limit on radio/receiver

All of these items are available right now at reduced price points from the stuff currently beign used in our slowest class (Stock TC). Just agree to the rules, write the rules, and obide by them. Doesn't have to be a Nationals level class, frankly shouldn't be either.
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Old 10-16-2007, 08:46 PM   #134
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Pool of motors would help. But there will be a dozen reasons why it would not work but it would be the only 100% way to ensure random distribution of motors with wide range of performance.

The real fix is what novak had done in the first brushless ESC the :
SUPER SPORT SPEED CONTROL SS4300 unit had these profiles
-SPORTSMAN (Limited rpm and acceleration) — with reverse
-SPORTSMAN (Limited rpm and acceleration) — forward and brake only

By using those profiles on say a BL13.5 you could actually have what stock racing was or is supposed to be like. These profiles would take away the advantage of a 100$ matched pack vs a 50$ loose pack by having limited RPM and ACCELERATION it would take away the need for high cost batteries and motors. By using the sportsman mode you could have all BL13.5 motors run almost the same.

Funny how this little feature was missed,ignored and now eliminated from the novak line. Perhaps its because people love to bitch about the cost of racing but when a real solution comes out that would actually make guys race driver against driver instead of wallet wars guys get scared they will no longer have excuses??? I duno, im a club race running stock for the last 15year... i love stock and would accept a SPORTSMAN MODE stock class any day. IT would be more inviting to all new and old racers...

Perhaps a REV LIMITER could be placed inline with all excisting BL and B ESC??? Save having to buy new ESC's to compete.. A simple 20-40$ limiter could be installed inline with the motor.. There could be various REV LIMITERS available depending on the class or track size. A high RPM version for OVAL racers and a higher ACCELERATION for ONROAD GUYS?? Some one could make thousands off my idea or loose there shirt when guys decide the just want wallet wars in stock. This is an idea ROAR could really fly with.


IF you limit those two things going to the motor you allow for cheap ESC,motor and batteries in stock racing again. The rest of the gear have at it. Want to run a T2009? go for it, want a 3PK FASST? go for it in the end it will be setup and drivers being the main differences as to who wins races
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Old 10-16-2007, 08:48 PM   #135
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I addressed that in my post above.

Yes, stock was a beginners class years-and-years ago because it was S-L-O-W.

As I pointed out, stock today is just as fast as mod was in 1987.

The driving skill of a beginner isn't any better today than it was 20 years ago, but we're asking him to start out in a class that's waaaay too fast for him.

The rest of us who still race stock, feel we're going the same speed that we did 20 yrs ago in "Modified". The 19Turns are the same speed as modified 10 yrs ago.

Even racing 19Turn, much less mod, is getting tough on equipment. Some guys have the skill, but don't have the wallet to race it or feel obligated to use up all their vacation time to run 3 big national events per year.

That's why I suggested the opposite approach...slow Mod down to 19-turn type speeds (maybe slightly faster even). Make it accessible to a broader group of people.

Then, eliminate 19Turn. Leave Stock alone and rename it "pro-stock".

Lastly, make a "new" stock class with much slower motors for the beginners we need to keep this thing going. (Refer to my phrase above in boldface).

I know some people will complain about slowing down modified, but those people are in the minority. (It's also the same people who don't have to pay for most of the equipment that it uses up) Biggest on-road race of the year, and there's only 44 racers in mod foam, 34 in mod rubber, and 35 in mod 1/12.

I completely understand the attraction people have with unlimited modified. They love hearing the motors whistle, parts flying off cars from a single mistake, smoke pouring from the car as the motor or speedo melts, etc. Unfortunately, it's just not practical.
Mike- How fast is a 10 Turn compared to a 19T? I remember that the Reedy Race use to limit the motor to a 10T and EFRA had a 12T rule (not sure if they still do). What do you think of limiting Modified to a higher wind like that? I never really thought about the speed of stock compared to 15 years ago. A lot of that makes perfect sense.
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