R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10-02-2007, 08:10 PM   #46
Tech Regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Surrey British Columbia Canada
Posts: 304
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nashrcracer View Post
best quote I heard at the IIC was during the stock foam TC "A" main as a european commented as he looked up at the tshirts on the drivers stand "that in europe all the stock "A" main drivers would be privateers." no sponsorship at all. which would pretty much move all the drivers in the c and d classes up to the "A" in the states if you took out all the chassis sponsored drivers. even the 50% guys. heck I run 19t in TC at national events because it's fun and I'm not even sponsored. the problem isn't the drivers that want to run more it's the chassis companies that say you wna this sponsorship you must run stock. it all comes back to win on sunday sell on monday. your not going to change this. I had a conversation with Drew Ellis a couple years ago at the novak race. he wants to run MOD. he actually ran it at the novak race in 2006. he was told that he couldn't run mod at the national level as they needed him to run stock and they had enough mod drivers and needed him to STAY IN STOCK. win sunday sell monday

on limiting it to only one class as most stock tc guys run 19t also. the setup is similar and vice versa with mod to 19t that is why drivers run both. it's track time for the main class stock or mod. and it's also not cost effected to only run one class at a big race where you would have 7+ hours between runs. also just look at the winners of the 19t class the last couple big races other then a few races it's mod guys cherry picking in 19t class. for example Dumas told someone last tuesday that he would TQ and win 19t foam. which he did in convincing fashion. he was the only "A" main mod guy to run 19t

what's the answer
I say drop the 27t totally and make stock a 35t or 17.5t motor and you will get rid of the intrenched stock drivers they will either cherry pick and run the slower class or step to 19t making 19t a prostock class. I figure more will run "prostock" then cherry pick. and then you can really make fun of the cherry pickers. but it will take a hugh rule change on roars part to do that. but then again japan has the 23t class as a prostock I hate to add another class as I run stock at our club races just to have enough people to run but I don't see any other way to get the fast stock guys out of the stock class other then making it slower.

that is exatcly how i feel aswell sposored drivers in stock is oil and water should never happend and repeat winners should always beforced to bump up to the faster classes casue most of the time ti always the same guys winning
C_Suzuki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2007, 08:22 PM   #47
Tech Master
 
Ed237's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Dudley PA
Posts: 1,431
Trader Rating: 10 (100%+)
Default

Greg, I aphologize for helping to hijack this thread and turn it into some kind of debate about who should be allowed to run what class, so, I'm going to back off of that one - thats a totally separate issue and it has nothing to do with costs or car design.

I'm probably giving the wrong impression. I am a big proponent of spec racing at the club level. We race stock TT01s at and emphasize having fun. The spec class helps create interest and brings new people in for sure.

I wonder if such a concept could ever work at a regional or national level. It sounds like Tamiya TCS racing might be the model you could follow.

Maybe you could use a similar formula to bring some costs down and level the playing field but would ROAR or even the RC Pro series even give it the time of day?
Ed237 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2007, 08:39 PM   #48
Tech Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 7,212
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed237 View Post
If stock is that bad dont race it - choose another class. If everybody eventually leaves, they will have to do something about the rules. But if turnout for stock events stays strong that means its not broken and doesnt need fixed.

But that's the problem, turnout in all classes is down, and most especially in stock touring car. Sure big races are getting high car counts (but not as high as they used to) but the local tracks are getting smaller and smaller turnouts. There are many reasons for people getting out of the hobby, but the two biggest are it's too expensive or it's not fun anymore.

When you consider the high cost of today's elecric touring car, it may not be a bad idea for stock rules to incorporate chassis restrictions as well. Every form of racing has some rules designed to keep the cost of competition from getting out of hand (although the Formula One constructors have found away around those rules, but that's for another thread). Maybe we should adopt chassis rules for stock, and let the mod classes keep using the high tech stuff.

Oh, and you don't have to limit it to tub chassis. All you have to do is say absloutely no graphite!
jiml is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2007, 09:51 PM   #49
Tech Elite
 
BigDogRacing's Avatar
R/C Tech Charter Subscriber
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Memphis, TN
Posts: 2,955
Trader Rating: 12 (100%+)
Send a message via MSN to BigDogRacing
Default

Some of you newer guys might not know me, so I'll tell you up front- I tell it like it is, and I don't waste much time blabbering over BS. So with that said, let me tell you straight up that attempting to spec out chassis' will not work. You will always have technology trying to test the limits of the rules etc. Then you are going to work with every single manufacturer to control their product to keep it on the spec level? Not gonna happen. Just the logistics of it will overwhelm and negate any benefits.

Bottom line- Rob is exactly correct. No matter what the age, class, whatever. The racer must be forced to step up to a higher level after X amount of accomplishments. I even like the idea of limiting the bump to X amount of years, months etc. And while ROAR or any given sanctioning body can only control thier specific races, other sanctioning bodies and race promoters would hopefully follow suit.

Nash beat me to the part about sponsored racers. THis might cause some confusion with who has partial and full sponsorships, but I don't think the team managers would mind sending in a list of sponsored racers quarterly or right before every national event. You get the idea...

I'll take it even further here by making the statement that all national level stock TC races must be run on rubber tires. Rotate the spec tire every race, whatever it takes to make the manufacturers happy, but make every race have a spec rubber tire. Here's a thought worth mentioning- at carpet races such as the IIC or Snowbirds only allow sponsored racers to run foam tire stock class. Make the rubber tire stock class meet the national stock class rules, but stock foam open to the sponsored guys (but still no factory racers??- further discussion needed but not the point right now).

Wanna make it even more fun? Make stock TC and stock 12th scale a handout motor class- brushless handout motors. WHAT??? Sure! Limit the number of stock class entries and put a seal mark on the motors and hand them out with some sort of serial number. Have the manufacturers bid for each national race to supply the motors. Give the racers the ability to come to tech at any time and have their motor checked by a manufacturer provided brushless motor testing device to be sure it's still within specs, and use the tester to test the motors after the races to be sure they aren't tampered with. I woudl venture to say it would be easy to produce a specific motor tester that would simply require the racer to remove the pinion leaving the motor int he car, attach a few alligator clips, zoomy zoom- the motor is in spec- you're good to go. Don't wanna run the handout race motor for practice etc? OK, bring your own stock BL motor to tech and check so see if it's within spec, and if not, how far out it is and is it a little better or worse than your handout motor.

I have a few other ideas for privateer stock classes as well that would take even more of the "factory guy" values out of the equasion, but I don't think they need to be discussed in public.

There's no doubt on road racing is heading down the drink, but it's not so far gone that it can't be saved. But some key persons need to get their heads out of their arses and get on the ball to make it happen.
BigDogRacing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2007, 10:06 PM   #50
Tech Champion
 
Nova F1 Racer's Avatar
R/C Tech Charter Subscriber
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Peoples Republic of Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,682
Trader Rating: 3 (100%+)
Default

Hmm... Some good points made but I have a question...

Are/should the ROAR rules/guidelines for the driver or the car?

Which one should ROAR be focusing on? Both? Then ROAR needs to separate these and have rules for both... Trying to solve both at the same time will more trouble than its worth...
__________________
This is DICK!!! And you're NOT!
RC Tech member #11
Aussie Rules Footy, Brisbane LIONS!!
[url]http://www.pitter-pat.com/[/url] for pet care needs in Northern Virginia
Nova F1 Racer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2007, 10:28 PM   #51
Tech Elite
 
Greg Sharpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: ...building minis
Posts: 3,237
Trader Rating: 15 (100%+)
Default

On the off chance that everyone on RC Tech agreed on one single solitary solution to fix TC racing in the US, what exactly is the process of having ROAR change a rule(s)?
Greg Sharpe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 06:21 AM   #52
Tech Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 7,212
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Sharpe View Post
On the off chance that everyone on RC Tech agreed on one single solitary solution to fix TC racing in the US, what exactly is the process of having ROAR change a rule(s)?
There is simply no way everyone on RC Tech will agree on anything. That's why it will be difficult for ROAR to make such a change. The handful of people at ROAR who decide on things like this are volunteers. They have their own lives, their own problems, and their own racing to worry about. They fit in their ROAR obligations when they can. They also take any rules change seriously. Right now they are dealing with the introduction of 2 new technologies to RC, brushless motors and lithium batteries. They are doing their due dilligence to fit these into the current rules.

A chassis rule is possible, but it will take a while.

Nova, I don't think you could make rules based on driver skill. You wouldn't be able to enforce it.
jiml is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 07:26 AM   #53
Tech Champion
 
Nova F1 Racer's Avatar
R/C Tech Charter Subscriber
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Peoples Republic of Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,682
Trader Rating: 3 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jiml View Post
There is simply no way everyone on RC Tech will agree on anything. That's why it will be difficult for ROAR to make such a change. The handful of people at ROAR who decide on things like this are volunteers. They have their own lives, their own problems, and their own racing to worry about. They fit in their ROAR obligations when they can. They also take any rules change seriously. Right now they are dealing with the introduction of 2 new technologies to RC, brushless motors and lithium batteries. They are doing their due dilligence to fit these into the current rules.

A chassis rule is possible, but it will take a while.

Nova, I don't think you could make rules based on driver skill. You wouldn't be able to enforce it.
I dunno.... The only rule/class that I would like to see is sponsored racer and non-sponsored racer category.
This is for ROAR events
Class A Sponsored racer at least 1 national and 4 regional events
Class B Non sponsored more than 2 national ( 1 or less titles) and 5 regional events ( 2 or less titles ) in that class - a racer can win a 1/12 title but compete in 1/10 class )
Class C Not sponsored first and second timers ( no national titles and 2 regional titles ) Any car class.

These would apply if there is enough people signed up for the event..
__________________
This is DICK!!! And you're NOT!
RC Tech member #11
Aussie Rules Footy, Brisbane LIONS!!
[url]http://www.pitter-pat.com/[/url] for pet care needs in Northern Virginia
Nova F1 Racer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 07:38 AM   #54
Tech Elite
 
Greg Sharpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: ...building minis
Posts: 3,237
Trader Rating: 15 (100%+)
Default

Interesting idea, but until we bolster local racing by making it more approachable for newbies, there won't be enough entries at ROAR events to split every exsisting class into three new tiers of skill level.
Greg Sharpe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 07:48 AM   #55
Tech Elite
 
BigDogRacing's Avatar
R/C Tech Charter Subscriber
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Memphis, TN
Posts: 2,955
Trader Rating: 12 (100%+)
Send a message via MSN to BigDogRacing
Default

I agree Greg- the club level is the core leveland needs as much or more attention than the national race. I believe the "3 podiums and move up" style of rule would be easy to apply to lower level races and even club races. It would obviously need some modification or adaptation, but would be much more user freindly to the club level race directors than policing all those chassis rules and dictation- what a nightmare.
BigDogRacing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 07:55 AM   #56
Tech Elite
 
Francis M.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Yorba Linda, CA
Posts: 4,719
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

I think that the original intention of this thread was to put a price cap on the chasis for stock racing.
Francis M. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 11:07 AM   #57
Tech Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: MI
Posts: 462
Default

Chassis price is not really the issue here. Locally, a lot of the new racers are buying used cars (with spares) from racers that are getting new cars. The ones that choose to get new cars aren't complaining about the price of the new car.

The problem is that with the new batteries, stock's pretty close to being as fast as mod was 15 years ago. People who are just getting started in the hobby can't even complete a run without breaking the car on carpet. After a few weeks of spending $20 a race in parts they get discouraged and quit.

Stock should be made the beginner class again. We need to have the same sweeping change in stock that we had back in 91. Those changes should be put in place to make the stock class slower and more reliable for beginners. I don't know what all of the changes should be but a good start would be full stacks and stand-up brushes. Also, if a club can mix a slower brushless class in that's great but they should be kept seperated at big races. Handouts should be eliminated from all races.

Also, the factory stock guys aren't a problem if the class is running at a speed that new people can handle. If anything they help by teaching the new guys about driving and tuning. A new racer isn't discouraged by getting beat by a good driver nearly as much as breaking 3 out of 4 runs.
Unregistered is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 11:33 AM   #58
Tech Master
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Nor-Cal
Posts: 1,853
Trader Rating: 18 (100%+)
Default

How about for Stock at a ROAR National Event, two stock classes. One called "Pro Stock" and one called "Expert Stock".

The entire field will run two qualifiers and will split down the middle into the two classes. The top half in "Pro" the bottom half in "Expert". From that point on it is two more qualifiers to seed and then triple "A"s to crown the victors in each class.
__________________
SMC ( www.smc-racing.com the only place to order your batteries online.), Awesomatix, Gonzo Paints, BN Racing

"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."
Advil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 11:59 AM   #59
Tech Elite
 
Francis M.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Yorba Linda, CA
Posts: 4,719
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Chassis price is not really the issue here. Locally, a lot of the new racers are buying used cars (with spares) from racers that are getting new cars. The ones that choose to get new cars aren't complaining about the price of the new car.

The problem is that with the new batteries, stock's pretty close to being as fast as mod was 15 years ago. People who are just getting started in the hobby can't even complete a run without breaking the car on carpet. After a few weeks of spending $20 a race in parts they get discouraged and quit.

Stock should be made the beginner class again. We need to have the same sweeping change in stock that we had back in 91. Those changes should be put in place to make the stock class slower and more reliable for beginners. I don't know what all of the changes should be but a good start would be full stacks and stand-up brushes. Also, if a club can mix a slower brushless class in that's great but they should be kept seperated at big races. Handouts should be eliminated from all races.

Also, the factory stock guys aren't a problem if the class is running at a speed that new people can handle. If anything they help by teaching the new guys about driving and tuning. A new racer isn't discouraged by getting beat by a good driver nearly as much as breaking 3 out of 4 runs.

The problem is not just with new comers staying. Thats the easy part, IMO its hard for people to pluck down 400 just for a roller is a big investment for a first time buyer and the examples of people buying used equipment are not true beginners in a sense that it is not there first car. People that buy used are the smarter people that like to race locally.

One things for sure Tamiya TCS has one of the biggest following for low budget racers. ROAR should really look into that formula.
Francis M. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 01:32 PM   #60
Tech Regular
 
solardragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Kamloops, B.C.
Posts: 452
Default

limiting the type of chassis for stock class is an interesting idea. the problem though seems to be more then just chassis type in stock class. when confronted with a problem the best route is to be ask those who are "living" the problem and that is the novices, as that is often where the solution should come from.

for novices the problem is not the chassis type it is driving skill. it matters little what type of chassis they run. they will afford what they can afford when they can afford it. it is their capabilities as a driver that will sort it all out on the track.

obviously, stock class is slower. the 27T motor allows a new driver to learn how to drive. A novice driver does not really have the experience to control with any degree of skill a 19T motor. I am a novice driver and i have spoken with several novices and those who would like to get more involved in the sport. the most daunting obstacle is that we do not have the skill needed to race against the more experienced racers. this fact alone keeps people from coming out and getting involved.

i recently participated in my first event (which used ROAR guidelines) and I could not believe the high degree of skill level and competitiveness in the stock class. It is not much fun and very disheartening to race against people who are much faster, and being constantly told to move over and let them by, or endure the wrath of the experienced driver. thats not racing nor is it fun or motivating, atleast not for a beginner racer. why would i want to race in a stock class filled with "pro" racers, which should be the next step up for a novice. I don't, and many others feel the same.

what is the solution? i don't think it is in chassis type, but rather in promoting a class the less skilled driver can race in and develop their skills. i can understand the reluctance of the experienced driver not wanting to move on to a faster class. it is fun to win, but it is also no fun to not stand a chance of being competitive in a class that should be for beginners. perhaps making it mandatory for the experienced driver to move on or developing a pro stock class would be the solution and make the sport more inviting for the new racer.
solardragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
TRADE GUIDELINE/RULE ***PLEASE READ*** AND POST bj4racer25 R/C Items: For Sale/Trade 15 02-04-2008 08:11 PM
ROAR stock class winner out of stock for 5 years... or8ital Electric On-Road 188 01-23-2008 08:58 AM
Pratice Guideline & Updates RcKook Louisiana Racing Fourm 3 05-16-2006 04:04 PM
12 used fantom monster & fantom binary balanced stock motors 2 epic roar stock brand jason cheng R/C Items: For Sale/Trade 11 06-06-2005 08:23 AM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 04:12 PM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net