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Old 10-17-2007, 02:59 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by bvoltz View Post
Sorry but I do not see your logic here... Anyone that has tried 5 cells in Stock will tell you, it is better on the equipment, and it is less stress on the equipment...

To the rest, 19T could be your "Pro Stock" class, leaving Stock alone to develop new racers...

So how are some of you getting people out of stock, what is the tip you can share with us? I think that is the bigger question, not fixing stock but getting the better drivers out of stock...
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Originally Posted by Rock'sTC3 View Post
the answer to that seems pretty easy to me. Racers in stock that dominate should move onto a different class. Say in a season a racer wins 3 stock race for example. He should now move up. Or maybe a certain number of podium finishes.


OVRCCC has experimented with splitting the 'stock' class up into 3 'stock classes, yeah it 'seems' stupid on the surface, but it gets racers to race with others with the same or close to the same level of ability, and everybody wants to be competitive, whether they are on a 'pro' pace, or 'sportsman' pace,
classes
"Pro"
"stock"
"sportsman"
a we have a 'cutoff' that when you reach that cutoff, you move up [ya hafta hit the cutoff 3 times, yeah I know, sandbaggers]
We currently have ben 'encouraging' the better racers [Pro] to move into our "Mod' class with some good results. Some complaints have surfaced as we have allowed the 13.5 brushless into the Stock Class [oh my gosh they're SOOO fast is all I hear!] so what, it lets the average racer run a litle faster without the time consuming arm cuts after each heat BS! And ALMOST everyone is on Rubber ires, this also cuts costs and gearing issues.

I think we lose sight of the whole thing on the 'Club' level, HAVING FUN!!, being competitive with others of the same ability, and the least hassle possible, this will allow Mr. Average racer the chance to have fun without the National/Regional level one run motors/tires/car BS. When he gets better he moves up to a faster class & still feels competitive.

I Know too long winded, but I learned form McSmooth!! LOL!

Speedy
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Old 10-17-2007, 05:37 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by speedybill View Post
OVRCCC has experimented with splitting the 'stock' class up into 3 'stock classes, yeah it 'seems' stupid on the surface, but it gets racers to race with others with the same or close to the same level of ability, and everybody wants to be competitive, whether they are on a 'pro' pace, or 'sportsman' pace,
classes
"Pro"
"stock"
"sportsman"
a we have a 'cutoff' that when you reach that cutoff, you move up [ya hafta hit the cutoff 3 times, yeah I know, sandbaggers]
We currently have ben 'encouraging' the better racers [Pro] to move into our "Mod' class with some good results. Some complaints have surfaced as we have allowed the 13.5 brushless into the Stock Class [oh my gosh they're SOOO fast is all I hear!] so what, it lets the average racer run a litle faster without the time consuming arm cuts after each heat BS! And ALMOST everyone is on Rubber ires, this also cuts costs and gearing issues.

I think we lose sight of the whole thing on the 'Club' level, HAVING FUN!!, being competitive with others of the same ability, and the least hassle possible, this will allow Mr. Average racer the chance to have fun without the National/Regional level one run motors/tires/car BS. When he gets better he moves up to a faster class & still feels competitive.

I Know too long winded, but I learned form McSmooth!! LOL!
Speedy
I checked out the OVRCCC class rules at http://www.ovrccc.com/Rules/class_rules.htm. It looks like Speedy is on to something here. This is similar to a handicap in golf. Come to think of it, most club level racing classes/groups are based on lap speed. I use to race with the BMWCCA. It didn't matter if you were driving a 300HP M3 or a 175 HP 318i. Your run group is based on driving skills and average lap times. The goal as one moves through the rank is to have enough experience to become an Instructor where you can get free track time.

Speedy, I would like you to elaborate on how you would evaluate a visiting racer to your track. Is the class determined on their racing experience or practice lap times?

Come to think of it. In the BMWCCA, we have log books. When we register for other events such as Mid-Ohio or Watkins Glen, we would put our track experience in and have a local Instructor vouch for us to allow us to run in the faster run groups. But I think in R/C, the goal might be to run in the slower run group so that one can win.

Also, I think it should be the responsibility/dutie of the Pro-Stock drivers to pair with the Sportsman Stock drivers throughout the day. Evaluation, encouragement, tips, tricks, car and radio setup, etc can be conveyed.

It looks like from all the post on this thread, we are recreating/proposing a hybrid system similar to the Tamiya TCS and SCCA/car club racing.
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Old 10-17-2007, 06:08 PM   #153
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I wish there was a way to change the topic of this thread, as we've wandered so far from the topic of ROAR Stock classes, that for good reason, we should consider this a distinctly different topic(s).

Getting new blood, keeping new blood, making our exsisting classes more cost friendly ...... all worthwhile goals, none of which having a whole lot to do with the original idea.

I'm taking the advice mentioned on the last page. Starting next season I'm going to make every effort to create a low cost class of racing at my local outdoor track. No local indoor tracks around here.
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Old 10-18-2007, 12:39 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Scrubb View Post
This thread is pretty funny.

Nobody wants to be a loser, yet in racing cars, there is only one winner - first place. The only way you can make every racer happy is if you make them all winners. If everybody is a winner, then its not racing.

The best part is that the current system of having 10 cars in each main that is sorted by timed qualifers already solves what this whole thread is about. If you finished in the A-main, your a fast stock racer, If you finished in a lower main, your a slow stock racer. If you want to do better, you'll have to put more effort into it.

I really don't see anything wrong with that system.
You must be blind. Racing now is alienating the new racer. The cars are too fast with THE SLOWEST MOTOR. Guys are receiving 100% deals and incentives for the slowest class. How does this allow for skill development when the fast guys are literally running the new guy and the hobbyist type racer over? These people are also totally discouraged when they see who is racing the slowest class, and they are 5 laps off the pace.

I constantly see this tough guy response, that you should just be happy in the d main. Unfortunately, if we do not take care of the few new guys that come in there will be no D main. We will not have enough racers. The cars are now so complex and fast, we need a class that will let people develop more than ever. Not to mention, when you have been at the top of THE SLOWEST CLASS for like 4 years, maybe you should move up. But maybe you won't, because you like the cushy spot (and sponsorship) where you are and you don't want to be challenged by guys who are faster than you. That is the reality.

Every other motorsport and for that matter, most organized sports and competitions do have a ladder to climb for competition. You can't be 17 and play little league, and they don't throw you into a tour event with a 32 handicap in golf.

I'm watching the car counts go down at on road tracks. I think the current system is not helping.
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Old 10-18-2007, 12:54 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by robk View Post
You must be blind. Racing now is alienating the new racer. The cars are too fast with THE SLOWEST MOTOR. Guys are receiving 100% deals and incentives for the slowest class. How does this allow for skill development when the fast guys are literally running the new guy and the hobbyist type racer over? These people are also totally discouraged when they see who is racing the slowest class, and they are 5 laps off the pace.

I constantly see this tough guy response, that you should just be happy in the d main. Unfortunately, if we do not take care of the few new guys that come in there will be no D main. We will not have enough racers. The cars are now so complex and fast, we need a class that will let people develop more than ever. Not to mention, when you have been at the top of THE SLOWEST CLASS for like 4 years, maybe you should move up. But maybe you won't, because you like the cushy spot (and sponsorship) where you are and you don't want to be challenged by guys who are faster than you. That is the reality.

Every other motorsport and for that matter, most organized sports and competitions do have a ladder to climb for competition. You can't be 17 and play little league, and they don't throw you into a tour event with a 32 handicap in golf.

I'm watching the car counts go down at on road tracks. I think the current system is not helping.
Nice post Rob. I agree fully.
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Old 10-18-2007, 04:10 AM   #156
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we have loan cars at our track and it really helps the newcomers who are interesting in racing see if its for them or not.

We get about 20-25 racing on a wednesday night, outdoors with flood lights.

Any clubs suvival is dependant on making everyone welcome, not just the fast guys. Some of the fast stock guys go over to 13.5 brushless, which is good as it could set the ball rolling for others.

The power increase is noticable enough but not enough to feel like its not controllable. then the newcomers can run 27t
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Old 10-18-2007, 04:42 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by robk View Post
You must be blind. Racing now is alienating the new racer. The cars are too fast with THE SLOWEST MOTOR. Guys are receiving 100% deals and incentives for the slowest class. How does this allow for skill development when the fast guys are literally running the new guy and the hobbyist type racer over? These people are also totally discouraged when they see who is racing the slowest class, and they are 5 laps off the pace.

I constantly see this tough guy response, that you should just be happy in the d main. Unfortunately, if we do not take care of the few new guys that come in there will be no D main. We will not have enough racers. The cars are now so complex and fast, we need a class that will let people develop more than ever. Not to mention, when you have been at the top of THE SLOWEST CLASS for like 4 years, maybe you should move up. But maybe you won't, because you like the cushy spot (and sponsorship) where you are and you don't want to be challenged by guys who are faster than you. That is the reality.

Every other motorsport and for that matter, most organized sports and competitions do have a ladder to climb for competition. You can't be 17 and play little league, and they don't throw you into a tour event with a 32 handicap in golf.

I'm watching the car counts go down at on road tracks. I think the current system is not helping.


You got it, the way to fix this in STOCK(as this is about stock) is to use a REV LIMITER or RESTRICTOR divice inline with the ESC. That way the guys running stock that pay there way will have equal power on the track as the guys getting the free ride to beat up on the stock class. IF the average stock motor is producing 25,000RPM and the tuner is gettting 29,000RPM it would not mater as the RESTRICTOR could limit RPM to 24,500RPM and equal the feild.

I dont understand how anyone could not be in favour of either RANDOM handouts every race(but what if i get the dud???) OR a RESTRICTOR such as the profiles from the novak ESC. This device could be designed im sure if ROAR wanted to use such a rule in stock, im sure any of the ESC companies could produce one at a cheap price. I have yet to hear on valid reason why a restrictor would not solve the stock TC class problems. You could still have newbies racing with seasoned vets, kids on budgets vs free ride club pro, the output woudl be the same, the driving and tuning of the car would become the deciding factor on the track... not motor and battery of the week
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Old 10-18-2007, 06:26 AM   #158
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Why am I blind? Because your local track dosen't seperate novice guys from stock guys? Because your local track dosen't dosen't require slower drivers to run motors with less power (yeah those silver can motors have been available for decades). Am I blind because your local track is not capable enough to draw in enough customers to seperate the faster guys from the slower guys?

I can tell you right now, ROAR rules mean nothing to a track owner that dosen't get many racers for weekly racing. The track owners are going to let anybody race whatever they want as long as they pay.

How on earth are the cars too fast with the slowest motor? What is your opinion as to what the slowest motor is? Tamiya sealed endbell motors on 4 cells are pretty damn slow in a touring car, so I don't think you've checked out all the options.

Trinity has plenty of options for spec classes including chassis', motors, and batteries. But the "racers" refuse to run that stuff for any length of time. The racers want that ability to try and find that extra advantage.

The options have always been there, you guys just refuse to use them. Blame yourselves for that. ROAR rules can't fix things like that. Its a local track problem.

Last edited by Scrubb; 10-18-2007 at 06:47 AM.
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Old 10-18-2007, 07:06 AM   #159
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I agree with Scrubb - How prevalent is it really for expert racers with 100% or even 50% sponsorships to compete against entry level/novice racers? If your local club is letting that happen, shame on them for not offering a sportsmans class and post a link to the results while your at it!

In general, I'm all for reasonable rules to reduce speeds and/or increase traction to make the cars easier to drive, but I cant get behind rules to force drivers into one class and not the other.
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Old 10-18-2007, 07:49 AM   #160
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There is only one way to get rid of the sponsored driver problem in stock class. You need to make everybody run the same brand.

For example, if everybody was required to run the same Novak brushless motor, then A: Novak wouldn't need to sponsor anybody for the class because no matter who wins, it was somebody using a Novak product (they are selling product win or lose). And B: No other company would need to sponsor a driver since their motor would not be legal to race anyway.

The problem with limiting to one brand is that ROAR wont do that, their rules have to be fair for everybody and every manufacturer.

The rev limiter is a great idea, but it has to be a little more specific. There also has to be a rule for how much torque is made at specific rpm's and how fast the armature spins up to the rpm limit. A motor that has more torque with identical rpm can be geared higher and go faster. Likewise an amature that spools up faster to the rpm range could have an advantage as well as be difficult for a beginner to drive.

A similar solution of requiring the output voltage from the speed control to the motor to 6.0v regardless of input voltage could easily remedy the Nimh vs lipo debate as well - might as well kill two birds with one stone.

In many forms of full size racing, different classes are run at the same time. The same can be done in R/C. Novice and stock class can run together, you just need to award them accordingly. The highest placing novice driver gets first place regardless of his overall stock class finish.

Last edited by Scrubb; 10-18-2007 at 08:01 AM.
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Old 10-18-2007, 09:33 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by Scrubb View Post
Why am I blind? Because your local track dosen't seperate novice guys from stock guys? Because your local track dosen't dosen't require slower drivers to run motors with less power (yeah those silver can motors have been available for decades). Am I blind because your local track is not capable enough to draw in enough customers to seperate the faster guys from the slower guys?

I can tell you right now, ROAR rules mean nothing to a track owner that dosen't get many racers for weekly racing. The track owners are going to let anybody race whatever they want as long as they pay.

How on earth are the cars too fast with the slowest motor? What is your opinion as to what the slowest motor is? Tamiya sealed endbell motors on 4 cells are pretty damn slow in a touring car, so I don't think you've checked out all the options.

Trinity has plenty of options for spec classes including chassis', motors, and batteries. But the "racers" refuse to run that stuff for any length of time. The racers want that ability to try and find that extra advantage.

The options have always been there, you guys just refuse to use them. Blame yourselves for that. ROAR rules can't fix things like that. Its a local track problem.
The slowest ROAR class is stock. Most tracks race this class. Any track can race anything they want, but guess what my friend, the average new guy will show up to the track with a 6 cell pack. And, most likely they will be sold a stock motor. Telling me to fix it locally does nothing because so many tracks use ROAR rules. We can do anything we want, but racing is down across the board.

The funny part is guys around here have been trying 5 cell, and the local multi track series has sportsman, stock and 13.5 classes-with rules for weight breaks for 4 and 5 cell, if you want to run it. Hell, they run Tamiya minis. But I'm sure that the 4 cell Mabuchi class is huge at your track right? Do you have a sportsman class?

I'm trying to point out that nationally, we need to make a change to support the guys who are not at the top. Because it's not just my track, it is tracks in many places who are having troubles. I am so tired of guys like you. You cannot see the trees for the forest.

Yes drivers should be forced to leave stock. In fact I shouldn't be running stock, and I can barely crack a d main at a national event.
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Old 10-18-2007, 09:39 AM   #162
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I think I'm going to write-in Langston Higley for ROAR Veep.

Yes. Yes I will.

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Old 10-18-2007, 10:35 AM   #163
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So, let's petition the excomm for a class that will only be run on the local levels that will be slower than stock, and call it stock (because people can't bare to be called a sportsman or novice or amateur). So that they have an avenue to move up, make them run lathe motors locked at 15 degrees and 6 cells. This way they only replace the motor to bump up to 'pro stock'.

I still say that the pan chassis with an old school front end, 4 cells and the silver can is the best way to teach someone the ropes of RC. The cars can be fast, for what they are. If you get off line, it punishes the drivers. If you don't drive a smooth line it will punish the driver. It awards the driver for carrying corner speed. The cars don't really go fast enough to break parts left and right. You can't tune the motor. Batteries will only make a difference to people that finally learn how to drive. Chassis are all 190 - 200mm, and the body shells in that size are pretty thick and can take a massive beating. Like I said, we run this class locally and not only is it fun, but it is very educational. We will usually throw an experienced driver or two into the field so that the drivers can see the proper driving lines.

Forest for the trees has nothing to do with YOU not being a local activist. Changes could come from the top. It's faster and means more if they start locally I.E. It's easier to pull a rope than to push it. If the rules packages are developed and put into practice on the local levels, it will be easier to show someone that it actually works, and make any necessary adjustments before it actually becomes law.
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Old 10-18-2007, 10:50 AM   #164
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bottom line is that experianced racers should move up to 19T 0r 10.5 class. Thats the way it was designed to be and thats the way it should be. You can change your motor and thats it and be in this class so its not that expensive to switch. The same cars can be used in stock and 19T so the switch is pretty easy and the faster guys can still share set ups and teach the stock guys a thing or two without having to run them over 5 times a race.

At my local track there isnt even a 19t class most the time. Everyone races stock and sometimes we have like 8 cars and sometimes we need two heats. Regardless the same 3-4 people always fast and the same 3-4 people always 4-6 laps down. The split should be in the middle somewhere, when that happens.

if the club/track and its regular members agree and decided to have the two classes then it should not be a problem. If on days when attendance is low and you only have 3-4 cars in each class, then you can let the 19T guys run in the stock class for example. I mean all those guys still have stock motors right.. They might be supprised and get beat by a stock guy, who might now think maybe I should run in the 19T class and beat those guys there to and so he moves up.

make the 19T class more prestigious by having any prizes, or throphys be a little bigger and better than the stock class and people will be more likely to race there.

No need for restictor methods, or anything. Just use the system as it should be used and do not let sponsored drivers run in the stock class, and do not let the experianced racers beat up on the new guys. I hate to see newbies leave any sport because they get beat so bad in the beginning that it isnt fun. Lets be real this is supposed to be fun for everyone.
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Old 10-18-2007, 12:42 PM   #165
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The slowest ROAR class is stock. Most tracks race this class. Any track can race anything they want, but guess what my friend, the average new guy will show up to the track with a 6 cell pack. And, most likely they will be sold a stock motor. Telling me to fix it locally does nothing because so many tracks use ROAR rules. We can do anything we want, but racing is down across the board.

The funny part is guys around here have been trying 5 cell, and the local multi track series has sportsman, stock and 13.5 classes-with rules for weight breaks for 4 and 5 cell, if you want to run it. Hell, they run Tamiya minis. But I'm sure that the 4 cell Mabuchi class is huge at your track right? Do you have a sportsman class?

I'm trying to point out that nationally, we need to make a change to support the guys who are not at the top. Because it's not just my track, it is tracks in many places who are having troubles. I am so tired of guys like you. You cannot see the trees for the forest.

Yes drivers should be forced to leave stock. In fact I shouldn't be running stock, and I can barely crack a d main at a national event.
Nailed it again.......
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