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Old 05-19-2003, 09:54 PM   #46
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You can bet we will allow any traction compound the week before the Champs ONLY!!! I have noticed a few posts that have assumed we will ban Paragon pre-champs and thats just not possible and I never said it. But before and after we are seriouse;y considering doing away with PAragon or any other compound that gives the majority of people headaches or respritory distress.

But you have to believe and know that our track being a non-wintergreen track is the right thing to do. And it doesnt have to be Jack-thats just a compound I have found to be effective and I physically feel fine after using. I heard that people were totally happy with Jack at Nats. I really havent heard a single person say it didnt work-and agin-its the same for everyone.

I think the Jack being inconsistent comes from this-though I cannot prove it. If you run with Jack after the Novices run and have blown the debris and tire dust back into the groove, or you go wide and fall out of the groove-Jack feels slippery and inconsistent. if you stay in the groove and run after a clean heat-the stuff sticks great and stays very consistent. But-like I said-Cannot prove it!!!
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Old 05-20-2003, 12:29 AM   #47
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Ray,

Does TQ have wintergreen???? That stuff has some serious grip. All of it gives me a headache Just used to Paragon... I am coming up no matter what ya got bubba! Last year was awesome.............
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Old 05-20-2003, 01:00 AM   #48
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Has anyone tried Paragon FXII?
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Old 05-20-2003, 01:29 AM   #49
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Rayhuang,
I've been following this thread with some interest and finally decided to add my bit. It appears from your profile and comments that you are a track owner. Maybe this may not be your case but for the majority of people in your position, your long term future revolves around bringing new people into the hobby and retaining as many as possible. The most logical target areas for growth are kids and spectators that you can induce to see their first race and get bit by the R/C bug. While for many of the kids this may be a passing fad, under the right conditions a percentage will stay on. The magnitude of this percentage will depend in large part on the conditions that you create at your track (facilities, friendly and helpful racers, HEALTHLY environment, etc.).

My 12 year old daughter and I make up our racing team. She races an X-Ray in mod and an HPI PRO3 in stock electric TC and has reached the pro level in our local club (I work as her wrench to make her as competative as possible from that end). Unfortunately; she, like an alarming percentage of young kids today, has asthma much of which is triggered by smells as well as chemicals, etc. I spend about $150 per month on asthma medication in the hope that we can lick her problem and that she will outgrow it and live a normal adult life. Maybe me seeing her as a terrified 7 year old unable to breath and gasping for air has skewed my perception but I will do everything possible not to endanger her health in this respect for the future. While as an adult I may make stupid or at least informed decisions with respect to my own health (I used to smoke), I am not willing to make these same decisions for my kids. Maybe your track is only for the diehard racer, potential health risks be damned, and going home every race day with a splitting headache is an acceptable situation - that's all well and good and more power to you. However, it's not worth it for me to bring my kid there no matter how much we want to race if there is a potential health risk especially of a respertory nature. For us this is supposed to be fun. For that matter, I don't know how many spectators will want to endure a headache just to watch either.

I have played competative sports and fully understand the "do what it takes to win" mentality (both my knees are shot as a result). In any competative sport, hobbie, etc. the participants will push the umbrella after all that is a large part of the fun. In our case it is up to the track owners, race organizations and concerned racers to set the limits to ensure that the hobbie will be self-sustaining. Sometimes the decisions are not easy no matter which way you go. Keep in mind that lawyers haven't gotten involved ....... yet - you're most likely safe as there's probably not enough money in it for them (but who knows if there is a slack period and they need a little extra cash). Remember, win or loose, it would probably wipe you out.

Last edited by calvin; 05-20-2003 at 03:31 AM.
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Old 05-20-2003, 12:53 PM   #50
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This honestly seems like a "smoking/non-smoking" discussion. Airborne chemicals, no matter if it comes from a "filtered" cigarette, or a can with the intent of bettering your hobby experience... are all equally dangerous. I dont see anyone leaping up and down to ban smoking from racetracks nationwide! The biggest reason my kids were never "allowed" at my hometown indoor track was BOTH of these reasons. The cigarette smoke was unbearable... and the smell of traction additive would give my kids breathing problems for a few days after going there. I guess all i am trying to say is... decisions are made by people in a position to do so... based on what is pertinent in their eyes. I just wished the decided "restrictions" were consistent across the board. Not just in areas that directly bother the person "in charge". Please understand this is in no way directed at you Ray... i am actually glad someone is deciding to debate issues as such. These issues affect racers nation... and im sure... world wide. This directly affects me... because i love the look in my sons eyes... and the hours (days!) of chatter from him after he has driven an R/C car. But for these said reasons... he cant do it. I actually love the smell of paragon in the race room the day after a great night at the track! Does this need to be an issue dealt with by ROAR and other sanctioning bodies? I think so. It is the only way to really get an unbiased decision that doesnt reflect on any certain person. Isnt that what these organizations are there for?! Sorry for my babbling... just thought i would drop my .02! Good luck!
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Old 05-20-2003, 01:03 PM   #51
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DaveW-YOu'll be happy to know my track is non-smoking!!

But seriousely it is a non-smoking track. And you are right-its often whats important to whos in charge as to what is done and a decision by ROAR or any sanctioning body on these subjects like motor spray and traction compound would be very unpopular, but welcome by some.

I thnk some sort of self regualtion needs to occur, much as in the automotive field where many dealerships have banned certain brands of brake cleaner from being used in there shops, or at least certain kinds of chemicals in brake cleaner have been banned.

Ray
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Old 05-20-2003, 01:43 PM   #52
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Default Health Friendly Traction Compounds

I thought I would mention two products, that I have used, that improve the traction of rubber tires without harmful health effects. One is Elmer's Sticky out which is pure orange oil, the oil from orange peels. This is sold at large office supplies as an adhesive remover. This might work well in mod with rubber tires where the extra heating of running mod helps with traction.

Orange Clean by Orange Glo Products is a combination of orange oil and a surfactant (detergent) that is made as a heavy duty cleaner degreaser and can be found at Walgreens or Walmart. This product makes the tires a little softer than the Elmers Product. Orange Clean also makes a lighter bodied spray cleaner that can be used outdoors on rubber tires on a more dirty track where a clean but only slightly softened tire might work better.

Neither Product will provide as good a traction as the nasty stuff, but if everyone uses it racing will be even. I have not tried the products on foam tires, but have noted that they soften foam.

There are two components to standard traction compounds oil (like wintergreen oil) and a solvent. In my opinion, as a chemist, the solvent is probably the ingredient that is most harmful to your health and is responsible for headaches, lightheadeness, etc. All symptoms of chemical exposure. The wintergreen in excessive concentration in the air does contribute to sinus irritation. To me Paragon smells like it contains wintergreen oil and laquer thinner, but I have run no tests on it. It's probably the solvent component that makes people sick. It's like spray painting indoors without a respirator when 100 guys are using the stuff indoors.

I would be wary of odor free products for use indoor that still have as a major component a strong solvent. The only way to know is to have manufactures list the ingredients.

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Old 05-20-2003, 03:09 PM   #53
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I always assumed that Oil of Wintergreen was added to the "chemistry" of traction additives merely to cover up the smell of the solvent, not as any real benefit to traction. Kinda like cherry-flavored cough syrup ... if they didn't put in some sort of "aroma enhancer" you'd never get the stuff close enough to your mouth to take it!
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Old 05-20-2003, 05:28 PM   #54
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Tire rubber actually contains oil to make it soft. The more oil the softer it is. The wintergreen oil is probably an active ingredient. The solvent is used to penetrate deeper into the rubber, making the rubber softer. The solvent then evaporates into the air.

Citrus Oil is a well tolerated oil and seems to cause no sinus irratation or health problems. It just smells like oranges. When you get the car home the tires just smell like rubber.

WD40 has a similar mixture of strong solvents and oils. I would not consider it much better (healthwise) than paragon for indoor use.

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Old 05-21-2003, 06:22 AM   #55
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Hi guys. greetings from Malta.

I put in a contribution some days ago, expressing my views about additives.

Frankly, despite owning a model shop and knowing that additives are another good form of income, I am very much against them, primarily because of the health danger.

However it has got to be the ruling body, ROAR, IFMAR, EFRA, whatever, that has to ban it. Posts by adults and parents written over the last 24 hours have shown the ill effects additives can have, especially on children.

At the risk of being repetitive, my son had a similar bad experience at the Worlds (indoor) in 1998. He ended up with swolen and irritated eyes which will no doubt have deterred his performance, and certainly both his and my health.

So despite being in the business, with additive a great source of income, I would be the first to support a total ban of any form of additive, indoor or outdoor - just a complete ban.

Besides, what's wrong with an equal playing field. Why do guys always look for that unfair advantage. The reason for control tyres becoming so popular these days is simply to have a more equal playing field. Why screw it all up by allowing additives.

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Old 05-21-2003, 07:06 AM   #56
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Banning all tire additives is impossible, and will not level the playing field in any way, shape, or form. What you will then have is individuals using "cleaners" to "clean" out the tires. Individuals will seek out non-R/C products with similar traction promoting agents, and you'll run in to a track full of people spraying "easy-off" oven cleaner on their tires. If you confront them they'll just tell you that they're only cleaning their tires. Control tire racing, in my opinion is offensive. All cars are different, they aren't completely consistent on a car to car basis from just one manufacturer. So now, you search for the ideal insert/wheel stiffness combination to make up for a potentially inferior tire! Level playing field, what a joke!

Are we going to ban Motor Spray, and comm drops? What about all the hazardous Nitro Fumes at IC races? It starts with one thing and then leads down the road to others. If the smell of Paragon is gone, then something else may be deemed unhealthy, and therefore it also must be banned. Battery Zappers aren't the safest things in the world, but I've never heard a track owner try to ban them. Come to think of it, we should probably bar any racer from who doesn't own a top of the line charger from sanctioned racing events, because overcharged batteries can actually EXPLODE!!!!

A track owner, and ONLY a track owner, can ban certain products. A national sanctioning organization has no business banning any product unless it is clearly not within the rules of competition. Sanctioning bodies set guidelines for competition, they should not unilatteraly forbid the use of anything that confroms to the Spirit of their rules.

If your local track allows the use of products that you disagree with, I'm sorry for your loss, but find somewhere else to race. The Human Condition has really gotten to the point of "One over All"
and I find it appalling. If you're afraid of heights, don't skydive. Can't swim, stay outta the water. If you have asthma,(as a child I did), don't run a marathon. Lots of people are allergic to dogs, I guess we should ban canines!

If a track owner chooses to restrict the use of certain products, that's his prerogative. It's his business, and he'll reap the rewards, or suffer the consequences, depending on his customer's reactions. We need less sanctioning body involvement in this sport, and more direction from the track owners who, are actually the ones who make it possible for us all of us to race.

P.S. If I EVER open my own track, it'll be a PARAGON only establishment.
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Old 05-21-2003, 07:48 AM   #57
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Ian,

I know what you mean in a lot of ways. When I first went to JOhn's track in Beaver , PA and ran I was amazed he wouldnt allow Paragon and the TQ products everyone used there I hated!! I couldnt understand the issue. But after experiencing 100 entry race days with 95 of them using PAragon, in the middle of winter with the building shut tight for 5 days straight-I gotta do something about the oil of wintergreen. I was sick from it.

But-regardless this is not so much a debate about PAragon as it is about Oil of Wintergreen as a respitory irritant. The headaches may also be caused by the solvents, but I have been suprisingly headace free from Jack only. Zip Grip, TQ and Paragon all give me a wicked headache!!! I used to take two Tylenols on the trip to JOhn's TQ track because I knew I was going to get a headache. Then after awhile I put a bottle of Tylenol in my pitbox!!!!

Ray

p.s. When are you going to open another track??? YOu KNOW Columbus needs a permanent indoor facility like Crossroads in Dayton had-the most awesome Carpet track I have ever been to. Billiard board smooth-HUGE track.
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Old 05-21-2003, 08:11 AM   #58
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Ray: Like I said, it's your joint and you know you've got my support as long as you don't go to TQ stuff! As far as my own track is concerned, I hope to begin scouting for suitable buildings on Thursday. I'm looking for a structure just like Crossroads. There was nothing cooler than seeing people pull-up outside thinking they were in a scene out of "Deliverance", and then walk through the door, see pit space for 150+ racers and of course, the greatest racing surface I've ever had the privelege of racing on! We probably never had any real health issues at Crossroads because we had plenty of ventilation from all the holes in the building LOL!! I would like to construct a 110' by 72' track, on a double layer, tongue and groove plywood subfloor. I'd also like to have a fully stocked pro-shop, and a concessions contract with Hooters to provide the track food, as well as (how can I phrase this tactfully?), the atmosphere, yeah that's it. Of course all this is contingent upon my winning the Ohio State Lottery on Wednesday night.
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Old 05-21-2003, 08:27 AM   #59
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Cypress... i can fully appreciate your response on this. Many people say what you have just said..... But... i DO NOT leap out of planes sky diving, nor have any interest in it. And for good reason. R/C is a different matter though. The only way our hobby will survive is adopting an attitude that DOES cater to all types. Or as you said, "human health condition as one over all". Being willing to accept risks on ones life (chemical or physical) should be a personal decision... and not one that affects others directly. What you just typed above, (if you cant do it for health reasons, then find something else to do) is the same "attitude" that has pressed many away from Oval racing... leaving only a few of the "old timers" that made the genre possible, and newcomers with more $$$ than they know what to do with. The whole idea is to BRING more people to the hobby... not give them ultimatums to move away from it. It is a delicate balance. How could anyone not like an environment that was healthy for them and their children?! Oh i forgot... those set in their ways and unwilling to change would. I dont know about you... but it wouldnt be any fun being 50, and one of 10 people that "jump out of airplanes" with a parachute tied to my arse. I would rather be 50, and have many people, young AND old to compete against, in a hobby that is accepted anywhere in the world... and loved by all that participate in it with no fear of harm. On an inqusitive note... doesnt NASCAR ban traction additives? Seems to me NASCAR is widely prosperous amongst the masses... and it even involves REAL danger and death. When Dale (or any other fave driver that has passed in the past) died, i didnt see anyone voting to stop racing... but they opted to enforce better restraints for personal safety of the drivers. NASCAR officials outlawed traction additives for the purpose of trying to make it "stock car" racing. Not to remove any of the "fun factor". That is the issue here... finding a way to please all... and still allowing a feasible and cost effective way to remain competitive. This is a discussion for health and survival of our hobby... not... "my way or the highway". This issue is more in depth than this forum has touched on... so no answers will really be achieved. But it is good to see there are those out there that are concerned. All it takes is one voice to make it better for all.

Ray... i wish i lived closer to your track, i would surely be there on a weekly basis. I know my son would love it. And with as little time i get to spend with him... it would be time well spent!

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Old 05-21-2003, 08:56 AM   #60
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Dave W: I see what you're saying but my post had more to it than just the Paragon thing. Like I said, it's a track owner's prerogative.

My problem is that there's no way to please everyone, but one single individual can make things worse for everyone else. This hobby involves the use of quite a few chemicals which are not very friendly to the human body, of course the air most of us breathe, also contains various froms of pollutants etc. The sport is growing, in spite of Paragon obviously, but there are dangers involved with virtually every hobby in the world, someone may even be allergic to the adhesives used on stamps, so for them stamp collecting might not be a possibilty. What I'm saying is there are things I'd like to do that I can't, because I'm not capable of doing them, do I throw a fit and demand that special accomodations be made for me? No, I suck it up and find another way to occupy my time.

You could race outside, or you could race off-road, or YOU could try to persuade YOUR track owner to make YOUR local track a Paragon free establishment. There should not be a Hobby-wide ban on the use of Wintergreen based compounds.

To be honest this argument is actually pretty irrelevant to me, I race outside in the Summer, and I actually use Trinity Red dot on pavement, and my "home" track in Cincinnati will probably be a pargon track untill there's no more Paragon left in the World.

I've stated my arguments and I'm not gonna explain myself again,.I'll watch this thread with continued interest, and I hope everyone understands my points a little better now.
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