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Old 09-24-2007, 02:19 PM   #361
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Lipo is great. Those that want to spend thousand of dollars for .01 second will burn all their RC stuff down and end up retiring. Those that like to race, have fun and be safe will be just fine. Its like natural selection for RC

^^ thats a joke for those without a sense of humor ^^
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Old 09-24-2007, 02:20 PM   #362
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glassdoctor,
list removed
After a quick scan I also noticed A123 and Saehan Enertech.
[SARCASM] Wait you mean if we knew the cell source of these packs we could look up safety information all by ourselves??? This internet thing rocks! [/SARCASM]
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Old 09-24-2007, 02:21 PM   #363
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R/C is the only hobby where any oversight is looked at with such disdain.

Don't you want someone to test your soldering iron to make sure it won't catch fire?
Don't you want someone to test your charger to make sure it works and can catch a peak?

This act of we the racers can decide everything for ourselves is getting old. How many racers knew anything about how lipo worked until linger spoon fed us the information? Aside from "this product is bitchin", how many racers have the technical or chemical knowledge to know anything about the items they use in r/c.
In r/c, the short list of dangerous items are:
1) fuel (and I can't tell you how many guys I have seen smoking while refueling a tank)
2) batteries
3) chemical compounds (including traction additives, cleaners, paints, materials- graphite, fiberglass, etc if inhaled)

Matchers hide LIPO battery specifics and manufactureres hide the contents of traction compounds, cleaners, etc.

The combination of ignorance and lack of facts is rampant.
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Old 09-24-2007, 02:24 PM   #364
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Are you a politician for real? Because you continue to side step and you don't see when someone is serious or just having some fun.

How does 4000 battery companies have to do with comparing Kokam to SMC?

Now... you do understand that Dell and the others who recalled lithium batteries DID have all the proper data, testing, labels, government approval, etc... yet they were not immune to having problems.

But you put so much faith in requiring such info and demand that SMC must provide it before selling to consumers. Some here even imply they have bad motives.

I am not an SMC guy... in fact I'm a supporter of Kokam. (Their soft case packs btw) Yet, predictably I am attacked for even suggesting that you guys are being to harsh.

Please don't ask that I go off and study the world's battery mfg. before I have the credibility to post in a radio controlled car internet forum. Take a step back from the keyboard for some fresh air. It's a big world out there.
Seriously dude, take a moment to read all the posts in this thread before continuing to misspeak for people. Wasnt I the one who said "if Global 500 companies cant insure safety what makes us think SMC can and did"?

So you are seriously upset that people want to know that a product (which has known to be quite unsafe) is safe before using it? Seriously? Its unrealistic for us to ask the question of how safeness was determined?

If you think people asking about safety is unimportant then no need to continue discussing this b/c neither side will see eye to eye. We will just have to agree to disagree.
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Old 09-24-2007, 02:34 PM   #365
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Old 09-24-2007, 02:36 PM   #366
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Which standard is good enough for you? Apparently the current standards don't cut it anyway.

http://electronics.ihs.com/news/2006...-batteries.htm

Nice cut and paste, but doesn't address what I asked. I asked how many (R/C) lipo companies have the safety info available that you want?

I see several mfg. there who make batteries for R/C. But that doesn't mean anything. This is about what information is made available to the consumer.

I don't think anyone here is thinking that whoever is the mfg. of SMC packs is working without a certificate of some sort hanging on the wall... is there?

The issue is whether SMC must disclose this info, and thus their source?
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Old 09-24-2007, 02:41 PM   #367
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To Jack or Danny,

Would it be possible for you guys to post data comparing the new Lipo pack to the SMC IB 4200 6 cell pack? I'm interested in what the voltage discharge curve compares from a full charge to 5.4 V at 35 amps. Also, I'm interested in the performance of the pack after 50 cycles, 100 cycles and 200 cycles, and if you have some old data from the IB 4200 to make a comparison.

Also, does your battery support the 2C charging rate, and what is the recommended chargers for your lipo battery?
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Old 09-24-2007, 02:52 PM   #368
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No... this isn't about me trying to misquote anything you said 10 pages back, etc.

"Our" discussion... isn't really about SMC's stuff anymore.

Quote:
So you are seriously upset that people want to know that a product (which has known to be quite unsafe) is safe before using it? Seriously? Its unrealistic for us to ask the question of how safeness was determined?
See, that's not it at all. I never said it was a bad idea to ask... or a bad idea for SMC to give out more info.

Where we disagree is how much of a tantrum we should throw, and how much mud to sling if they don't give us what we want.

I'm saying some here are WAY over zealous in attacking a relatively small company who is bringing a new product on the market.

The dead horse thing is funny though.

BTW, if they are just normal "unsafe" lipos and don't have a special formula like the Kokams.... then they are like almost every other cell in the R/C market.

I'm pretty sure one of the SMC guys said... if you don't like it don't buy it. Maybe not the most PC response but it's pretty clear.
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Old 09-24-2007, 02:54 PM   #369
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The issue is whether SMC must disclose this info, and thus their source?
I know you weren't addressing me but I'm sticking my nose in. Is it wrong to want the information? I can find out based on that info voltage characteristics, life expectancy and probably even chemistry. I can then make an informed decision whether I want the packs or not. Not buy and try. When I still used them, I could decide between GP, IB and now EP cells based on the differences in performance since I knew which cells I would get. Why should lipo be any different?
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Old 09-24-2007, 03:09 PM   #370
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Admit it, you love it.

oh and I completely disagree with everything you just said.
actually, i dont. With all of the companies sprouting up with soft cased lipos, I feel eventually, safety will be compromised. To keep costs down (except SMC, $130-$152 soft case), it seems that almost everyone out there is coming out with cheapie lipos. This makes me a lil nervous. I can vouch for Maxamps, but it seems that manufacturers are dropping it like its hot just to have their packs in the fray. When the hullabaloo was "hard case is the way to go", the fact that so many are abandoning this option is a bit startling.
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Old 09-24-2007, 03:58 PM   #371
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I just want to know what I'm buying. SMC, maxamp, trakpower or whoever else can sell whatever they want, but If they want the same or more than what Orion wants, I want to know why they expect more money than the other Lipo re-labelers.

Would anyone pay a premium for unlabeled NiMh cells from SMC? Everyone knows which sub-C cell is which and what trade-off are involved with buying and using each. With Lipo -- save for Orion/Kokam and a couple others -- you have no clue which cell you're buying,aside from knowing who's slapping on the sticker and saying it's great.

There's more to the Orions than a shell. You know how long they'll last, you know the safety feature(s), you know the track record of the manufacturing company.

The "what are you a liberal" guy must have been sleeping in the intro to economics class where they discussed how markets (are supposed to) work...you need some info to make a decision and we have none in this case aside from Jack Rimer telling us to trust him.

I'll trust him on a $30 set of tires, but I'm not dropping $150 on a soft Lipo pack on the basis of a sticker and a sales pitch. He should tell us why his is a premium-priced pack (masquerading as a cheap one).
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Old 09-24-2007, 04:37 PM   #372
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People offer softpacks because they are available easily and from many sources. There is no investment required to buy these already available packs. Almost all of them are not really the right size or perform as they claim. Consistancy is also a major problem with the lack of manufacturing control. We have a pile of lousy lipo samples

Anyone of you can buy these batteries, as is, right now... as long as you have the cash for minimum orders and have nothing to lose or can afford the product liability insurance.

If you want a cell that is designed for our applications specifically it takes thought and investment. Designing and tooling the 'right' product is not cheap. Of course you might go broke competing against the cheap stuff. It is sad but in the end you have to admit price rules for the masses.


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Old 09-24-2007, 05:23 PM   #373
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Team Tekin: I applaud you for saying what most here know: quality and value must be thought through and the product planned out.

On another note, tekin has been refining their new speedos for a year. You are doing things the way they should be done, perfect the product for the market and then release it.

I think that when it comes to batteries, racers are willing to spend more on premium product. In this thread, the accepted cost for a 5000mah lipo pack is $120-$150, which is the cost for the orion hard cased 4800 pack. The debate is whether smc has done anything to justify their price versus saying "trust us."

It seems that smc has done exactly what you said, find a source to create generic lipo packs, slap on a label, and voila, you are in the lipo battery business. Of course the best way to refute that claim is to simply offer any meaningfull specs on the pack.
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Old 09-24-2007, 05:25 PM   #374
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I just want to know what I'm buying. SMC, maxamp, trakpower or whoever else can sell whatever they want, but If they want the same or more than what Orion wants, I want to know why they expect more money than the other Lipo re-labelers.

Would anyone pay a premium for unlabeled NiMh cells from SMC? Everyone knows which sub-C cell is which and what trade-off are involved with buying and using each. With Lipo -- save for Orion/Kokam and a couple others -- you have no clue which cell you're buying,aside from knowing who's slapping on the sticker and saying it's great.

There's more to the Orions than a shell. You know how long they'll last, you know the safety feature(s), you know the track record of the manufacturing company.

The "what are you a liberal" guy must have been sleeping in the intro to economics class where they discussed how markets (are supposed to) work...you need some info to make a decision and we have none in this case aside from Jack Rimer telling us to trust him.

I'll trust him on a $30 set of tires, but I'm not dropping $150 on a soft Lipo pack on the basis of a sticker and a sales pitch. He should tell us why his is a premium-priced pack (masquerading as a cheap one).
You know I am in agreeance with you on that. Orion has the hardcase and built in protection which others do not have. With full disclosure backing them, I can see why they cost what they do. Maxamps is a bit more for the budgeted and have more variety and have served me well which is why I am using them. BUT, for companies attempting to cheap their way into the fray (soft case) coming out the gate with near Orion prices, they need to ease off the crack.
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Old 09-24-2007, 05:42 PM   #375
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Yep...I don't have a problem with paying 100+ for a pack that retains >85% capacity for 1000 cycles...IMO, that's a cheap pack and a wise choice dollar-wise.

If it only lasts 50 cycles, it may still be a better value than a 4200 pack, but that's not a very good value to me.

I think I finally just finished off my original Platinum pack (RIP...LOL), I puffed it up a bit a year ago, running a 7700 w/o the Lipo cutoff (dumb move ) and I've been nursing it for another year. I charged it up the other night as per usual...went to use it yesterday and it was super dead...the car would just barely move and it was puffed even more.

I got it from the first batch when they came out and I've beaten the crap out of it (race 1-2X a week, no lipo cutoff, run till it dumps, >1C charging, back-to-back-to-back-to-back at the Tamiya enduros, running 4wd mod with novice skilz...etc, etc). THAT was a $130 battery and worth every penny.

I may have it bronzed.
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