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Old 09-24-2007, 01:41 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by Advil View Post
You keep forgetting that in this industry what is safe may not be what sells. This hobby (for better or worse) is performance oriented. It always has been and I don't see this changing any time soon. If cool racer "A" wins then Joe racer "B" buys. Simple.

I am NOT encouraging the use of "dangerous" packs. I am just trying to let the "have your cake and eat it too" crowd of the realities of this hobby. I'm not giving you "new" information, only reiterating what you already know.
What's the point if that's your take on it? So we can become as bitter and jaded about it as you seem to be?

Sorry, I just don't feel discussion about it is pointless even knowing what the reality will likely be in the end.
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Old 09-24-2007, 01:43 PM   #347
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Damn, it seems things have gotten thick since I was away. Back in the saddle, seems that there is some inner bickering goiing on...soft case vs hard case lipos.....boy, I tell you, some folks will debate about anything
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Old 09-24-2007, 01:45 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by or8ital View Post
If ROAR legalizes them the primary thing they will test for is safety for allowing a pack. At least that's what David Lee told me.

If you look through the threads of rctech you will find there is a large group of racers that arent looking for "more" performance. They think racing is too fast and we are all wasting too much money trying to gain .01 seconds per lap.
That would mean that rules would be put into place. When those rules appear, then you will see some comply and only if those rules are not so onerous that it makes no sense to enter the market. Be careful of what you wish for or you won't have a LIPO to run.

There is a large group of racers that are looking for more performance out of the LIPO so they can swith from NIMH. What do you say to them? What do you say to the many that don't really care how much? They will buy the best regardless of what others may think. Wallet racing is not dead by any means.
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Old 09-24-2007, 01:47 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by Advil View Post
Racers will always seek the edge and will push the limits. All "Spec" packs will do is require the purshase of many packs to find the best ones. This is hard earned experience talking on the spec packs.
People also use LiPo because the batteries don't fade in performance after 20 cycles. Right now, everybody is talking about LiPo in spite of the fact that they don't have the voltage of NiMH. If we all go to LiPo, are you saying suddenly all those people are going to start caring about it again? Really?

As for charging, maybe rules should be considered for not altering the standard CC/CV protocol. There are very real safety concerns when overcharging LiPo. Maybe that's impossible to force, but it's at least worth considering.
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Old 09-24-2007, 01:49 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by bxpitbull View Post
Damn, it seems things have gotten thick since I was away. Back in the saddle, seems that there is some inner bickering goiing on...soft case vs hard case lipos.....boy, I tell you, some folks will debate about anything
Admit it, you love it.

oh and I completely disagree with everything you just said.
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Old 09-24-2007, 01:51 PM   #351
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Wallet racing is not dead by any means.
Maybe not dead, but it's definitely on the decline. People all over the place are looking for alternatives. The boom in popularity for mini racing is a prime example. And did you hear the entire world yawn in unison when pictures of the new XRay and Tamiya showed up?
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Old 09-24-2007, 01:52 PM   #352
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I will say I race with about 10-12 guys that run one of two packs and I dont think over a summer (or half summer) of racing I have heard a single one of them say "Gee, I wish I had better performance out of my lipo".
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Old 09-24-2007, 01:52 PM   #353
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Default voltage and long life

If what linger says is true (I for one trust him), getting slightly higher voltage is easy, just change the chemistry. But by doing that, you are also decreasing the life of the pack. In nimh, the higher the voltage has gotten, the less reliable the cells have gotten. I for one still race 3300 stick packs, and their durability over ib4200 is undeniable. 2000 nicad packs were much more durable than any nimh packs.

As for ejecting packs and denting them, read what Linger says. The battery is damaged when you dent it. It might not explode, but it is damaged. Maybe those who don't see the value of a hard case care about the 1 ounce of weight it adds?

If the ultimate goal is to get the last .1 volts out of the pack, maybe racers should just make 19 turn into stock and leave it at that. Most weekend racers run stock because 19t is much faster and is that much more difficult to control.

On road electric racing is dying across the country. I think a large part of it has to do with the mentality some show in this thread. I understand that companies want to make money, but the amount of money spent on r/c is getting out of control, especially if you want to be competitive.

If the goal of racers is to get lipo packs that give .1 volts more but last 30 cycles and then deteriorate, they already have that, it's called nimh (which deteriorate after 10 cycles.)

Advil-> which racers want more voltage from lipo before they switch? The sponsored guys who don't and can't run lipos, or the weekend racers who love discharging, equalizing, and charging nimh packs? The only disadvantage I see in LIPO is that matchers won't make as much money.
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Old 09-24-2007, 01:54 PM   #354
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What's the point if that's your take on it? So we can become as bitter and jaded about it as you seem to be?

Sorry, I just don't feel discussion about it is pointless even knowing what the reality will likely be in the end.
Not bitter or jaded, I just feel that if any of this discussion is to make any sense (or better yet rules) those that are jawing about it need to have their eyes open and not only see the future but learn from the past. Only then can we make the moves that will ensure our hobby growing into the future.

If all else fails I can always go back to playing pool. At least I could make a few bucks doing that....
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Old 09-24-2007, 01:54 PM   #355
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glassdoctor, if you are on a laptop right now. Turn it over, take out the battery and look at all the logos on it. Then research those logos. To answer your question, if I do a search on the UL online certification directory for the keyword Battery, I get 4132 companies returned.

You know America likes to considers itself the ultimate free thinking country but its amazing how much some of us take for granted.
I don't need to ... Dell has already recalled my battery about a year ago and I hacked it with some Maxamps cells so now it can run for 14 hrs instead of 6.

Seriously... you must be a Liberal You think the Gov. must ok everything and spoon feed us too?

That was not my question. Let me spell it out so it can't be misconstrued yet again:

List every last company who is selling lipos with their own label (whether or not they are the mfg.) and put a check mark beside each one that has the credentials and data that you guys are asking from SMC.

My assumption is that VERY few (if any besides Kokam/Orion) will have them. I'm not saying it's a bad idea to have data etc. My point was and is... you guys are taking this too far with the whole "show us the money (data)!" thing.

At least name a couple other lipos on your approval list.

1.Orion/Peak (Kokam) 3200 and 4800
2. ?

And some here are so thirsty to argue that any statements even remotely supporting SMC are attacked even if they must be twisted to do so.
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Old 09-24-2007, 01:59 PM   #356
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I actually tried some MaxAmps packs because I read their voltage was so much better, though only for 40 cycles or so. I'm a pretty decent club driver, and I couldn't see any difference in speed or lap times between those and the Orion packs. This was running 13.5 brushless.

What I did notice is that the MaxAmps packs would fail on my charger consistently. One time it would be voltage too low, the next time voltage too high, etc. I had to try about 5 times before it would finally start charging. This happened to multiple packs. The Orion packs have never demonstrated this behavior.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm not convinced that even if a voltage edge is found, it will be enough to sway a bunch of people to use it. With NiMH, there's a very distinct advantage to better packs in certain styles of racing. Whether or not that holds true to the same extent with LiPo will be interesting to see.
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Old 09-24-2007, 02:02 PM   #357
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Seriously... you must be a Liberal You think the Gov. must ok everything and spoon feed us too?
Did I not say we take too many things for granted? How is that having the Gov spoon feed us? You seriously need to read the posts before responding.

Please do some independent research on the topic and then come back to contribute. I told you there are 4000+ battery companies on the UL site. Im not here to find which of those 4000 make packs used by battery matchers in RC. For instance without knowing who makes SMC cells how would I look them up?

Dell (and others) recalling batteries is why we care if they are safe or not. You are disproving your own posts.
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Old 09-24-2007, 02:08 PM   #358
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glassdoctor,

which of these are RC? I recognize Enerland and Kokam. Balls in your court now...

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Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH45367

QINGDAO AUCMA NEW POWER TECHNOLOGY CO
LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH28880

QUALLION L L C
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH26812

QUEST TECHNOLOGIES INC
Intrinsically Safe Equipment and Systems for Use in Hazardous Locations
OERX.E147901

QUEST TECHNOLOGIES INC
Intrinsically Safe Equipment and Systems for Use in Hazardous Locations Certified for Canada
OERX7.E147901

RADIOSHACK CORP
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH14688

RAE SYSTEMS INC
Intrinsically Safe Equipment and Systems for Use in Hazardous Locations
OERX.E160708

RAE SYSTEMS INC
Intrinsically Safe Equipment and Systems for Use in Hazardous Locations Certified for Canada
OERX7.E160708

RENATA SA
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH14002

RICKBERY INDUSTRIAL LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH28246

ROHRBACK COSASCO SYSTEMS INC
Corrosion Measuring Equipment for Use in Class I, Zone 0, 1 and 2 Hazardous Locations
ELHN.E62616

ROHRBACK COSASCO SYSTEMS INC
Corrosion Measuring Equipment for Use in Class I, Zone 0, 1 and 2 Hazardous Locations Certified for Canada
ELHN7.E62616

ROMET LTD
Telemetering Equipment for Use in Hazardous Locations
WYMV.E104709

RSA SECURITY INC
Data Processing Equipment, Electronic for Use in Hazardous Locations
ENWS.E211761

RSA SECURITY INC
Data Processing Equipment, Electronic for Use in Hazardous Locations Certified for Canada
ENWS7.E211761

SAEHAN ENERTECH INC
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH1214

SAFT AMERICA INC LITHIUM BATTERY DIV
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH15076

SAFT LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH12802

SAFT SA
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH12609

SAMSUNG SDI CO LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH21015

SAMSUNG SDI CO LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH26511

SANYO ELECTRIC CO LTD OPTICAL
BUSINESS SYSTEMS BUSINESS UNIT
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH19924

SANYO ENERGY (U S A) CORP
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH12383

SANYO GS SOFT ENERGY CO LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH16302

SCHLAGE LOCK CO
Electrically Controlled Single-point Locks and Latches
GYQS.R8458

SCHLAGE LOCK CO
Electrically Controlled Single-point Locks and Latches Certified for Canada
GYQS7.R8458

SEARCH BATTERY CO LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH30034

SENSITECH INC
Intrinsically Safe Equipment and Systems for Use in Hazardous Locations
OERX.E183006

SHARP CORP INFORMATION SYSTEMS GROUP
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH16274

SHARP ELECTRONICS CORP
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH16765

SHENZHEN B & K ELECTRONIC CO LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH28232

SHENZHEN BAK BATTERY CO LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH29353

SHENZHEN CHAM BATTERY TECHNOLOGY CO
LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH29650

SHENZHEN DAKE BATTERY CO LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH29810

SHENZHEN EAST ELECTRON CO LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH29539

SHENZHEN ENCEL TECHNOLOGY CO LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH29551

SHENZHEN GAONENGDA BATTERY CO LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH30114

SHENZHEN HEREWIN TECHNOLOGY CO LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH29923

SHENZHEN HONGDE BATTERY CO LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH45818

SHENZHEN OCEANSUN BATTERY CO LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH45908

SHENZHEN PLANTE POWER CO LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH45064

SHENZHEN REDWAY BATTERY CO LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH45458

SHENZHEN REXPOWER ELECTRONIC CO LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH45125

SHENZHEN YIKLIK ENERGY LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH45794

SHOEI ELECTRONICS CO LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH19429

SHUN WO NEW POWER BATTERY TECHNOLOGY
LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH25881

SIEMENS AG
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH10068

SII MICRO PARTS LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH15628

SK MOBILE ENERGY CO LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH27988

SKC POWERTECH INC
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH10193

SOLICORE INC
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH29663

SONY ENERGY DEVICES CORP
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH12566

SOOIL DEVELOPMENT CO LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH29000

SPECTRUM BRANDS INC
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH12542

STMICROELECTRONICS INC
Information Technology Equipment Including Electrical Business Equipment - Component
NWGQ2.E147580

SYMBOL TECHNOLOGIES INC
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH26159

SYNERGY SCIENTECH CORP
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH26626

TADIRAN BATTERIES GMBH
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH12827

TADIRAN BATTERIES LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH12193

TCL HYPERPOWER BATTERIES INC
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH28768

TELENOT ELECTRONIC GMBH
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH19840

TEXAS INSTRUMENTS
Information Technology Equipment Including Electrical Business Equipment - Component
NWGQ2.E134016

TEXAS INSTRUMENTS
Information Technology Equipment Including Electrical Business Equipment Certified for Canada - Component
NWGQ8.E134016

THERMO GAS TECH
Intrinsically Safe Equipment and Systems for Use in Hazardous Locations Certified for Canada
OERX7.E89708

TIANJIN LANTIAN TECHNOLOGIES CO LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH29789

TIANJIN LISHEN BATTERY JOINT-STOCK CO
LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH27663

TOSHIBA BATTERY CO LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH12828

ULTRALIFE BATTERIES INC
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH14240

VALENCE TECHNOLOGY INC
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH29016

VARTA CONSUMER BATTERIES GMBH &
CO KGAA
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH28845

VARTA MICROBATTERY
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH10248

VARTA MICROBATTERY GMBH
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH13654

VIC-DAWN ENTERPRISE CO LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH20550

VITZROCELL CO LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH18384

WANXIANG EV CO LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH45491

WELLDONE COMPANY
Information Technology Equipment Including Electrical Business Equipment - Component
NWGQ2.E225967

WELLDONE COMPANY
Information Technology Equipment Including Electrical Business Equipment Certified for Canada - Component
NWGQ8.E225967

WINBOND ELECTRONICS CORP AMERICA
Information Technology Equipment Including Electrical Business Equipment - Component
NWGQ2.E310944

WUHAN ANEN BATTERIES CO LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH10302

WUHAN HAOCHENG ENERGY RESOURCES
TECHNOLOGY CO LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH10060

WUHAN LIXING (TORCH) POWER SOURCE CO
LTD
Batteries, Household and Commercial - Component
BBFS2.MH45423

WUHAN LIXING (TORCH) POWER SOURCE CO
LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH26236

WUHAN VOLTEC ENERGY SOURCES CO LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH29130

WUXI SANGDA GUOLIAN POWER DEVICE CO
LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH29943

XENOENERGY CO LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH28122

XIAMEN POWERLONG INDUSTRIAL CO LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH29329

XIANYANG VOLTIX ENERGY CO LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH238919

XINGKE PROFESSIONAL LI-ION BATTERY CO
LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH45147

YOKU ENERGY (SHENZHEN) CO LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH21251

YUNTONG POWER CO LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH29603

YUNTONG POWER CO LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH45068

ZHAOQING FENGHUA LITHIUM BATTERY CO
LTD
Lithium Batteries - Component
BBCV2.MH28851
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Old 09-24-2007, 02:15 PM   #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Advil View Post
Not bitter or jaded, I just feel that if any of this discussion is to make any sense (or better yet rules) those that are jawing about it need to have their eyes open and not only see the future but learn from the past. Only then can we make the moves that will ensure our hobby growing into the future.

If all else fails I can always go back to playing pool. At least I could make a few bucks doing that....
Oh I agree that we need to learn from the past. Just checking to make sure you weren't one of those things will never change so why bother people. My main point in this right now is there can be a trade off in voltage, stability and life expectancy in lipo. I think it's important to educate yourself in the products you are purchasing. If more people did it, the manufacturers would end up giving the info.

As for realities, there will always be those who will spend the extra for performance. At least with lipo the advantage won't be as significant AND the ones who don't follow that path won't spend nearly as much in the long run since there packs will be just fine for longer. Plus they'll get some pretty sweet deals on lightly used "inferior" packs the spenders ditch.
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Old 09-24-2007, 02:19 PM   #360
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Are you a politician for real? Because you continue to side step and you don't see when someone is serious or just having some fun.

How does 4000 battery companies have to do with comparing Kokam to SMC?

Now... you do understand that Dell and the others who recalled lithium batteries DID have all the proper data, testing, labels, government approval, etc... yet they were not immune to having problems.

But you put so much faith in requiring such info and demand that SMC must provide it before selling to consumers. Some here even imply they have bad motives.

I am not an SMC guy... in fact I'm a supporter of Kokam. (Their soft case packs btw) Yet, predictably I am attacked for even suggesting that you guys are being to harsh.

Please don't ask that I go off and study the world's battery mfg. before I have the credibility to post in a radio controlled car internet forum. Take a step back from the keyboard for some fresh air. It's a big world out there.
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