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Old 09-22-2007, 07:28 PM   #301
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good catch. I assume the bottom end of the pack is the same as well.
As a major supporter of Maxamps/lipos in general, I do have a bit of a problem with a softcase that is designed to compete directly Orion that has Orion like prices. One of the major mags really should do a side by side by side by side cell comparison. They've done it with cars, sub c's, chargers, remotes, nitro engines...now its time for the same to be done with lipo...IMO.
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Old 09-22-2007, 07:33 PM   #302
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As a major supporter of Maxamps/lipos in general, I do have a bit of a problem with a softcase that is designed to compete directly Orion that has Orion like prices. One of the major mags really should do a side by side by side by side cell comparison. They've done it with cars, sub c's, chargers, remotes, nitro engines...now its time for the same to be done with lipo...IMO.
Well, the data hasn't been shown but SMC is claiming better performance. Not to be an ass but it was recently mentioned by linger that the higher performing packs voltage-wise tend to be more volatile and unstable. I have a tendency of believing what he says myself.
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Old 09-22-2007, 07:38 PM   #303
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Well, the data hasn't been shown but SMC is claiming better performance. Not to be an ass but it was recently mentioned by linger that the higher performing packs voltage-wise tend to be more volatile and unstable. I have a tendency of believing what he says myself.
Ditto. Using the higher voltage nimh packs as an example (more horror stories since the 4200's hit the market), this sounds logical. To be more of the "cutting edge", there is probably a fine line between superior and DANGEROUS.
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Old 09-22-2007, 07:52 PM   #304
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Well, the data hasn't been shown but SMC is claiming better performance.
Presumably, by "performance" they mean voltage. We've yet to see a cell that offers higher voltage without massively sacrificing safety and cycle life. Maybe this secret new supplier with their superior construction (red shrink wrap of the gods, I guess) will smile upon us and fix all the challenges that the most reputable LiPo makers in the business have yet to conquer.

Right...

I'm eager to see the charts on these cells, and how many cycles they take before capacity and voltage start to suffer. Almost any LiPo can look good for the first 50 cycles. It's the next 250 I'm curious about. Of course companies like SMC make their money selling fractions of volts for huge markup, and benefit greatly when packs need to be replaced to regain that voltage edge, so I guess we'll see how their LiPo strategy plays out once these packs are put under the microscope.
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Old 09-22-2007, 09:27 PM   #305
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We ought to see if Linger has a PayPal account and all pitch in a few bucks so he can get one...LOL...test it out and see what's up. I bet he can spot the manufacturer by sight.

I'm in for $10 just to call their bluff.
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Old 09-22-2007, 09:31 PM   #306
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I'll match your ten! C'mon lipo supporters (and HATERS), everyone pitch in $10 bucks and lets ask if linger will give it a whirl. Jim, no disrespect, but the masses are really curious.
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Old 09-22-2007, 09:58 PM   #307
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I've got $10 that says the nuthugger AdrianM will come in here telling us how cycle life is the second biggest inside joke in R/C.
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Old 09-22-2007, 10:03 PM   #308
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So we're up to $30?
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Old 09-22-2007, 10:52 PM   #309
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Well, the data hasn't been shown but SMC is claiming better performance. Not to be an ass but it was recently mentioned by linger that the higher performing packs voltage-wise tend to be more volatile and unstable. I have a tendency of believing what he says myself.
Actually, the Kokam (Orion) cells kinda prove that a cell can be both safe and high performance by lipo standards. So I would be careful to use this arguement against SMC esp since we don't have any evidence to NOT take them at their word at this point.

IMO.. SMC has not played this very well, for their own image.... BUT a lot of the guys here hating on them really are out of line also. SMC is guilty of being suckers and falling into the "internet forum" lion's den.

Dear SMC: My advice is to just start working on a hard case. It's in your best interests. REALLY... I think it's strikingly clear, is it not? Unless you are just so stubborn you refuse to give in to the market demand...

As already suggested... offer both soft and hard case styles.

As for the construction of these packs, yes it's good. But it's not rocket science. I have been constructing my own lipo packs for about 3 years btw. Just because they can make a nice shrink wrap is no reason to avoid a hard case. And it's not covering it up... it's a different construction.

Still, you guys need to call off the dogs... SMC doesn't owe you any explanations at this point.
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Old 09-23-2007, 05:37 AM   #310
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glassdoctor, you probably buy a car without looking at the safety data too. Its ridiculous to make a statement that they must be safe b/c they havent been proven to NOT be. Once its proven to not be and you have lost your house and all your belongings then what are you going to do?

I think its quite reasonable for consumers to ask for third party certification of a products safety for a product that has been known to have safety issues. How many millions of li-xx have been recalled in last 2 years??
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Old 09-23-2007, 05:46 AM   #311
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Wheres my free pack so I can blow the stickers off the competition.

I want to see proof its better before I pony up my dough.
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Old 09-23-2007, 09:24 AM   #312
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So we're up to $30?
I'll throw in a donation myself.

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Actually, the Kokam (Orion) cells kinda prove that a cell can be both safe and high performance by lipo standards. So I would be careful to use this arguement against SMC esp since we don't have any evidence to NOT take them at their word at this point.
Actually there is a decent amount of variation in the packs already on the market. A quick example would be Orion/Kokam vs Trakpower/Enerland. From what's been shown, Trakpower has better discharge voltage in lower amp applications such a stock and 19T while the Orion performs better at higher amp draw rates such as mod. Trakpower's life expectancy is also significantly less than Orion's. This is one good reason to be aware of the cells you are getting.

One way to get higher voltage performance out of a cell is to use a more volatile mix in the cells. Voltage is supposed to improve but with a price in life and safety.

My opinion? Until I see data showing why they are better or even data that shows they are higher performing I'll assume the worst until it's shown otherwise. 11 pages without anything?
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Old 09-23-2007, 10:09 AM   #313
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Actually there is a decent amount of variation in the packs already on the market. A quick example would be Orion/Kokam vs Trakpower/Enerland. From what's been shown, Trakpower has better discharge voltage in lower amp applications such a stock and 19T while the Orion performs better at higher amp draw rates such as mod. Trakpower's life expectancy is also significantly less than Orion's. This is one good reason to be aware of the cells you are getting.
Knowing about something before you buy it is the third biggest inside joke in R/C.

I'd be good for $10, but PayPal hates me.
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Old 09-24-2007, 07:12 AM   #314
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glassdoctor, you probably buy a car without looking at the safety data too. Its ridiculous to make a statement that they must be safe b/c they havent been proven to NOT be. Once its proven to not be and you have lost your house and all your belongings then what are you going to do?

I think its quite reasonable for consumers to ask for third party certification of a products safety for a product that has been known to have safety issues. How many millions of li-xx have been recalled in last 2 years??

You missed the point... might need to re-read my post without an agenda. (hint: someone was trying to make the leap that since SMC claims higher performance... therefore it MUST also mean that it's more dangerous. I was simply calling him on that false argument. COME ON... you can't say stuff like that without a valid reason.) But go ahead and start insulting me. WOW.

Yeah, lets' all assume that it's very likely that these WILL burn down your house... since they don't have data to prove it won't happen.

I have bought several brands of lipos and NO...I did NOT first demand to see safety data. I also grew up riding my bike without a tard helmet. Amazing I am still alive and never had to ride the short bus. (although possibly retarded after all)

Also, I never said it's not reasonable to ask a company for info concerning their product either.

Why don't you guys add up all the lipo sellers who have the kind of safety data you want to see from SMC. How many others have it??

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Old 09-24-2007, 07:37 AM   #315
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The flightpower (trackpower) cells have the best high amp discharge #'s I have seen. They are 'known' to be some of the best lipos money can buy. So if you think the orions are clearly better than trackpowers... then just stick with Orion and don't even bother looking at any other brands.

Also... lipos don't pick and choose which current levels they like. If cell X outperforms cell Y at high rates.... then it's not going to be worse than cell Y at a lower rate. At a lower rate they might fall in line and be very close.

BTW, one reason you don't see a lot of lipos that are built safer like Kokams is the energy density. Kokams tend to be thicker and heavier than other cells of the same capacity. (I have not compared every cell on the market... and Kokam does have more than one line, etc.)
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