EP4200's
09-04-2007, 11:53 AM
#46
Words is one thing, but if he has any email correspondence, their asses are as good as cooked. That rep at least should be fired. Arrogance is good when you have facts to back it, but a distributor to do that, is bad. Think of the dudes that have ICE chargers that now are have second thoughts about EP cells because of his experience. If confirmed, EP may now have to conduct tests, and if there is an issue, post disclaimers......thats effed up.
09-04-2007, 12:19 PM
#48
Sub C Cells-Been making these for years for R/C use and they have plenty of experience with them.
4200's=The reason these cells are so testy is the resistance is lower than EVER and the cell discharge's itself at a rapid pace. Care for them the right way and this wont happen. Hobbyshops need to TRAIN their people to explain these batteries more or have a print out made for each customer.
IB4200 experience-Build the pack,discharge it to .9 and then charge it the 1st time at 3-4 amps.Run it with a stock motor and be kind of easy on it.Your taking 6 cells that have NEVER been together and forcing them to be friends in a weird way.Let them get use to each other.
I charge them the 1st time at 3 amps,2nd time at 4,3rd time at 5 and then by the 4th charge im at 6 amps and keep it at 6 after this.
DO NOT USE A FAN WHILE CHARGING OR DISCHARGING 4200's.BIG NO NO!!!!! I have had about 60-70 packs of high quality 4200's with no issue's following this process.
Lipo's-Biggest problem here is the consumers trying to CUT CORNERS like they always do.They will buy a 7.4 volt Lipo that is 10C,12C,or 15C rated which is not good enough for most of R/C CAR applications.They need to be 20C,25C rated to be used in R/C Cars.
People will find these cheap packs on ebay and try running them with ONLY problems occuring.
Now on reciever packs you can use the LOWER C rated packs but not to replace battery packs.
Plus alot of companies have years of experience with SUB C's and just a year or 2 with lipo's. They have to learn from mishaps and they are still learning.
I like both batteries and LOVE my IB4200's.When cared for they work great with NO grief whatsoever.
Les
4200's=The reason these cells are so testy is the resistance is lower than EVER and the cell discharge's itself at a rapid pace. Care for them the right way and this wont happen. Hobbyshops need to TRAIN their people to explain these batteries more or have a print out made for each customer.
IB4200 experience-Build the pack,discharge it to .9 and then charge it the 1st time at 3-4 amps.Run it with a stock motor and be kind of easy on it.Your taking 6 cells that have NEVER been together and forcing them to be friends in a weird way.Let them get use to each other.
I charge them the 1st time at 3 amps,2nd time at 4,3rd time at 5 and then by the 4th charge im at 6 amps and keep it at 6 after this.
DO NOT USE A FAN WHILE CHARGING OR DISCHARGING 4200's.BIG NO NO!!!!! I have had about 60-70 packs of high quality 4200's with no issue's following this process.
Lipo's-Biggest problem here is the consumers trying to CUT CORNERS like they always do.They will buy a 7.4 volt Lipo that is 10C,12C,or 15C rated which is not good enough for most of R/C CAR applications.They need to be 20C,25C rated to be used in R/C Cars.
People will find these cheap packs on ebay and try running them with ONLY problems occuring.
Now on reciever packs you can use the LOWER C rated packs but not to replace battery packs.
Plus alot of companies have years of experience with SUB C's and just a year or 2 with lipo's. They have to learn from mishaps and they are still learning.
I like both batteries and LOVE my IB4200's.When cared for they work great with NO grief whatsoever.
Les
09-04-2007, 12:21 PM
#49
so after all that this weekend all 3 packs blow up. now one pack was my fault because after charging the pack earlier in the week it still wouldn’t that 4200 mah, so I set the mah lock out at 4200 mah and then ran it and did it again at 4000 because that pack had gotten to hot the first time. so I take full responsibility for that but the other two packs where not my fault.
Nobody in all of RCTech has had an E4200 blow up. But not you.
Not only did you have THREE blow up, they all did it on the SAME DAY! I don't even think any single person has blown up three IB packs either...total, much less all on the same day!
Call me crazy, but I don't think you're being completely honest.
09-04-2007, 12:25 PM
#50
Ok guys, I have sat around and watched this long enough. Let’s start this story from the beginning. Around 2 months ago RLMW VQ (Vic) purchased a Super Satchel of Cells from the local hobby shop that we race at. On the first night he assembled the packs he complained to Kevin Kane that the packs would only take a 3600MaHR charge on his Duratrax Ice. Kevin then discussed with him the procedure that he was using for his charging/discharging methods. Vic had no discharging methods or equipment. Kevin then took one of his packs, discharged it correctly, equalized it on a Novak Smart Tray, then proceeded to charge it. The pack took a 4600MaHR charge. Kevin then requested a 2nd pack from Vic and performed the same procedure. Again the 2nd pack took a 4600MaHR charge. Kevin then discussed with Vic that he needed more equipment in order to get the most out of his batteries. 3 days later Vic approached me at the track and told me he was having a problem with his batteries. Vic and I discussed what had transpired on Wed with Kevin. I gave Vic suggestions on different charges, dischargers, equalizing trays, and methods and procedures to be followed.
On Sunday 09/02, I received the following email from Vic:
brad its Vic
hey I got a pit bull x3 and a discharge/eq I was at harbor to day and I was charging and discharging im discharging at 30 amps to .9 volts and charging a 6.0 amps my with a peek detection at .032 . all 3 of my ep pack all blow up there is nothing wrong with my new stuff because I charged my ib4200s and those worked fine. as your guarantee that the packs should all take 4200 mah, well that packs form the the start never did so you tell me to get a different charger I do and you tell me to get a discharger and eq so I do and now they blow up so I think that new packs are in order. im at a loss of why this happened i did everything you tell me and now my packs are all trash. maybe i got a bad batch of packs or somthing but hopfully you can fix this problem. so when you get this please call my cell thanks.
I then called Vic, and discussed what the possible cause was for 3 battery packs to blow up in the same day. After getting Vic’s settings from his Pitbull that he had purchased from another racer, I then asked Vic about the Long Lockout Setting. He insisted that he would never use the Long Lockout because that would only ruin his batteries. I instructed Vic that there are 2 possibilities that caused 3 battery packs to “blow up” in one day – USER ERROR or EQUIPMENT FAILURE. Vic then stated that there was nothing wrong with his equipment and his settings on his charger were 100% accurate per what he told me. I then told Vic I would have to call him back. I told Vic that if those were his settings on his charger, then not to charge any more batteries on his pre owned charger until he can send it in for possible repair or calibration.
I proceeded to get in contact with the racer that was pitting directly next to Vic when the batteries vented. He informed me that Vic decided to set his charger to have a Long Lockout for 4200MaHR. Once this racer found this out, he instructed Vic that this wasn’t a good idea. Vic then stated that for his second pack, he set the Long Lockout at 4000MaHR.
I then called Vic back for our 2nd conversation. I started the conversation repeatedly asking Vic if he had the Long Lockout on. Again he insisted to me that he would never set the Long Lockout because that will ruin the batteries. I then told Vic that I had proof that he had his Long Lockout set at 4200MaHR. After a few minutes of conversation, Vic admitted to LYING to me about the Long Lockout setting on his charger. Vic then stated that he never used Long Lockout on the other 2 packs. I told him that I couldn’t and didn’t believe him because he had already lied to me twice. I then informed him there was nothing else I could do to “fix the problem” as the email stated. All I can do is try to educate him on proper battery maintenance. He then stated that it was Hurricane Motorsports fault that this happened. Hurricane Motorsports should have refunded him his money 2 months ago when he had his supposed original problems. I instructed Vic that his original problems were from his lack of equipment and education on correct procedures.
I feel that Hurricane Motorsports has gone above and beyond to help out a fellow racer and customer. I have been lied too repeatedly now from Vic. At some point there has to be some consumer accountability. We repeatedly instructed and demonstrated for him on how to maintain his batteries.
On a side note – the Duratrax Ice charger is not a bad charger. However, I have seen were the temperature probe readings were off by 15 degrees Fahrenheit. I informed Vic of this issue 2 months ago in our first conversation. Vic told me, at that time, he was using the temp probe to stop the charging of his packs. I informed him that he should possibly upgrade to a Competition Electronics Pitbull X3 as there has been issues with the temp probes accuracy. The Pitbull X3 is the only charger that Hurricane Motorsports endorses. All of our matching equipment is produced and maintained by Competition Electronics.
Vic – I understand your upset with this situation, however there are too many self induced circumstances that are completely out of Hurricane Motorsports control. If you would have approached Hurricane Motorsports differently with this situation by being straight forward, truthful, and honest, the outcome would have been vastly different.
Thanks - Brad
On Sunday 09/02, I received the following email from Vic:
brad its Vic
hey I got a pit bull x3 and a discharge/eq I was at harbor to day and I was charging and discharging im discharging at 30 amps to .9 volts and charging a 6.0 amps my with a peek detection at .032 . all 3 of my ep pack all blow up there is nothing wrong with my new stuff because I charged my ib4200s and those worked fine. as your guarantee that the packs should all take 4200 mah, well that packs form the the start never did so you tell me to get a different charger I do and you tell me to get a discharger and eq so I do and now they blow up so I think that new packs are in order. im at a loss of why this happened i did everything you tell me and now my packs are all trash. maybe i got a bad batch of packs or somthing but hopfully you can fix this problem. so when you get this please call my cell thanks.
I then called Vic, and discussed what the possible cause was for 3 battery packs to blow up in the same day. After getting Vic’s settings from his Pitbull that he had purchased from another racer, I then asked Vic about the Long Lockout Setting. He insisted that he would never use the Long Lockout because that would only ruin his batteries. I instructed Vic that there are 2 possibilities that caused 3 battery packs to “blow up” in one day – USER ERROR or EQUIPMENT FAILURE. Vic then stated that there was nothing wrong with his equipment and his settings on his charger were 100% accurate per what he told me. I then told Vic I would have to call him back. I told Vic that if those were his settings on his charger, then not to charge any more batteries on his pre owned charger until he can send it in for possible repair or calibration.
I proceeded to get in contact with the racer that was pitting directly next to Vic when the batteries vented. He informed me that Vic decided to set his charger to have a Long Lockout for 4200MaHR. Once this racer found this out, he instructed Vic that this wasn’t a good idea. Vic then stated that for his second pack, he set the Long Lockout at 4000MaHR.
I then called Vic back for our 2nd conversation. I started the conversation repeatedly asking Vic if he had the Long Lockout on. Again he insisted to me that he would never set the Long Lockout because that will ruin the batteries. I then told Vic that I had proof that he had his Long Lockout set at 4200MaHR. After a few minutes of conversation, Vic admitted to LYING to me about the Long Lockout setting on his charger. Vic then stated that he never used Long Lockout on the other 2 packs. I told him that I couldn’t and didn’t believe him because he had already lied to me twice. I then informed him there was nothing else I could do to “fix the problem” as the email stated. All I can do is try to educate him on proper battery maintenance. He then stated that it was Hurricane Motorsports fault that this happened. Hurricane Motorsports should have refunded him his money 2 months ago when he had his supposed original problems. I instructed Vic that his original problems were from his lack of equipment and education on correct procedures.
I feel that Hurricane Motorsports has gone above and beyond to help out a fellow racer and customer. I have been lied too repeatedly now from Vic. At some point there has to be some consumer accountability. We repeatedly instructed and demonstrated for him on how to maintain his batteries.
On a side note – the Duratrax Ice charger is not a bad charger. However, I have seen were the temperature probe readings were off by 15 degrees Fahrenheit. I informed Vic of this issue 2 months ago in our first conversation. Vic told me, at that time, he was using the temp probe to stop the charging of his packs. I informed him that he should possibly upgrade to a Competition Electronics Pitbull X3 as there has been issues with the temp probes accuracy. The Pitbull X3 is the only charger that Hurricane Motorsports endorses. All of our matching equipment is produced and maintained by Competition Electronics.
Vic – I understand your upset with this situation, however there are too many self induced circumstances that are completely out of Hurricane Motorsports control. If you would have approached Hurricane Motorsports differently with this situation by being straight forward, truthful, and honest, the outcome would have been vastly different.
Thanks - Brad
09-04-2007, 12:35 PM
#53
now that makes sense!3 packs in 1 DAY!!! I wouldn't pit anywhere near this guy... BOOM!!
09-04-2007, 12:45 PM
#54
Suspended
How incredibly LUCKY you are.
Nobody in all of RCTech has had an E4200 blow up. But not you.
Not only did you have THREE blow up, they all did it on the SAME DAY! I don't even think any single person has blown up three IB packs either...total, much less all on the same day!
Call me crazy, but I don't think you're being completely honest.
Nobody in all of RCTech has had an E4200 blow up. But not you.
Not only did you have THREE blow up, they all did it on the SAME DAY! I don't even think any single person has blown up three IB packs either...total, much less all on the same day!
Call me crazy, but I don't think you're being completely honest.
Of course, that's not really genius now is it? Perhaps Real Men of Idiocy is more fitting.
Someone needs to get McSmooth on the phone.
09-04-2007, 12:48 PM
#55
After the 2nd pack went you should have known you had a problem with your charger. I don't understand the need for using the long lockout. Just set you peak detect and be done with it.
As for saying the ICE was junk, I highly doubt that ever happened. I've discussed that charger before with Brad when I was thinking about replacing my stuff and he told me about some guys having trouble with the temp probe. So I decided not to take my chances.
As for saying the ICE was junk, I highly doubt that ever happened. I've discussed that charger before with Brad when I was thinking about replacing my stuff and he told me about some guys having trouble with the temp probe. So I decided not to take my chances.
09-04-2007, 12:52 PM
#56
Tech Champion
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I dont know...the cell on the end looks like the shrink is melted on it and where is the connector or the solder to post?
As for the guy who had a pack "just blow up in the back of his truck" I find it very hard to believe that that was the only pack he had in that padded case....I am 99.99999% certain that he probably put two packs in there facing each other and they shorted....I have been matching cells a long time and have NEVER just had a cell or pack blow up while sitting idle....in fact I have never had a cell blow up on me period. Of all the packs I have ever seen blow up at the track there was a good reason...USER ERROR. Charged pack sitting on top of a pile of tools, long lockout on at 8 amps with a fully charged pack.....things like that.
To the point of this thread you are right...there is a lot of sterotyping going on with Chinease products that should not be. There are a lot of good products from China and there are a lot of lower quality products as well. 99.9% of the time when something happens involving a battery its user error.
EA
As for the guy who had a pack "just blow up in the back of his truck" I find it very hard to believe that that was the only pack he had in that padded case....I am 99.99999% certain that he probably put two packs in there facing each other and they shorted....I have been matching cells a long time and have NEVER just had a cell or pack blow up while sitting idle....in fact I have never had a cell blow up on me period. Of all the packs I have ever seen blow up at the track there was a good reason...USER ERROR. Charged pack sitting on top of a pile of tools, long lockout on at 8 amps with a fully charged pack.....things like that.
To the point of this thread you are right...there is a lot of sterotyping going on with Chinease products that should not be. There are a lot of good products from China and there are a lot of lower quality products as well. 99.9% of the time when something happens involving a battery its user error.
EA
In all my years of racing I have never seen or heard of a pack of batteries that just blow up for no good reason. There is always some sort of user error or equipment malfunction....both of which are not reasons to blame the cells or the company you purchased the cells from….this holds true to NiCad, Nimh, and Lipo. Consumers need to start to show some sort of responsibility for their actions. Would you take a new BMW M3 and fill it full of diesel fuel then return it back to the dealership saying you have no idea what happen that it just broke down and now BMW is in the wrong for selling faulty cars?
Vic…its too bad that your packs blew up but there is more to this story then Hurricane selling faulty cells. Me personally I would have stopped what I was doing as soon as the first pack blew up and had everything checked out along with consulting with seasoned experienced racers or Hurricane themselves to make sure that I was doing everything 100% by the book. Also buying used equipment is a crap shoot sometimes you win and sometimes you loose...just because the person you buy something from tells you that they only used it 1 time that doesnt mean that in that 1 time they didnt ruin that item. This just sounds like there were too many circumstances that were outside the control of Hurricane for them to have any of this blame put on them.
09-04-2007, 01:14 PM
#59
Tech Master
iTrader: (40)
So you rip Brad for calling you a liar, but you admitted to lying to him about the long lockout setting, how do you see that being right? You have blamed the cells that Brad has sold, but it appears Kevin followed the same methods I personally use for charging, and everything is fine. At that point, I'd really look into my equipment, one piece at a time possibly, borrowing an equalizer from a buddy and trying it again on my charger (not using the long lockout of 4000+). I must ask, do you take the batteries right from your equalizer to charge, or are they allowed to sit, and allow the voltage to fluctuate some, before charging again; this basically make the equalizing much less effective. I personally had a pack this past weekend peak out @ 4100 mAh, and this pack ran fine in the race, still had plenty of power. I actually think this was a case of equalizing too early. I have had a few different chargers in the past few years, and I will say I have been very happy with the Pit Bull X3 chargers. No problems since I started using these @ .024 cut off voltage. It's very unfortunate that you lost 3 packs in one day, but to do the exact same things to 3 packs, on the same equipment, and expecting something different to come out of it is a bit, well, ridiculous. Brad is a very understanding racer, and businessman. He understands customer service, but the customer isn't always right. In a situation like this, if one battery goes, it looks to be a bad cell, when 3 packs go up, it really screams to be something else.
My question to you Vic, and please don't take this as a personal attack on you, but what did Kevin do differently to get the cells to charge to 4600+ mAh, when all that they'd charge for you is 4000ish mAh. Just putting a larger lockout wasn't the resolution, as I'm sure you know now. You can only put so much water into a bucket, and the same is true for batteries. You must be sure the cells are down to very low power levels prior to charging to get maximum capacity into them while charging. If the cells are half charged, and you repeak them and put in 2000 mAh, does that mean the battery only has half its capacity charged? Nope, when a battery is full, it's full. Again, sorry for your loss of products, I hope you'll see this whole situation from a wider perspective soon and realize whether you were charging Brad's packs, EA's packs, SMC's packs, or Joe Blow's packs, the same thing is likely to happen...
Finally, the batteries have limited capacity, and it sounds as if they weren't getting completely equalized prior to charging.
My question to you Vic, and please don't take this as a personal attack on you, but what did Kevin do differently to get the cells to charge to 4600+ mAh, when all that they'd charge for you is 4000ish mAh. Just putting a larger lockout wasn't the resolution, as I'm sure you know now. You can only put so much water into a bucket, and the same is true for batteries. You must be sure the cells are down to very low power levels prior to charging to get maximum capacity into them while charging. If the cells are half charged, and you repeak them and put in 2000 mAh, does that mean the battery only has half its capacity charged? Nope, when a battery is full, it's full. Again, sorry for your loss of products, I hope you'll see this whole situation from a wider perspective soon and realize whether you were charging Brad's packs, EA's packs, SMC's packs, or Joe Blow's packs, the same thing is likely to happen...
Finally, the batteries have limited capacity, and it sounds as if they weren't getting completely equalized prior to charging.
09-04-2007, 01:17 PM
#60
1) I own some EP4200 packs and I think they are much safer than my remaining IB4200 pack. They don't get as hot, vent less, don't self-discharge as much, etc...I'm surprised that someone was even able to get 3 packs to blow up on the same day. That takes skill.
2) Maybe this noob's NIMH headache could have been avoided if he had gone the lipo route. Lipos are very easy to "peak", don't need to be discharged/equalized, and require less babysitting in general. I'd feel much safer in the pits sitting next to a noob using an Orion 4800 than sitting next to a noob using 4200's.
2) Maybe this noob's NIMH headache could have been avoided if he had gone the lipo route. Lipos are very easy to "peak", don't need to be discharged/equalized, and require less babysitting in general. I'd feel much safer in the pits sitting next to a noob using an Orion 4800 than sitting next to a noob using 4200's.