HOW LONG BEFORE BL BECOMES THE NORM AND BRUSHED BECOMES THE COMMODITY???
08-28-2007, 02:20 PM
#47
Dave, c'mon man, there are so many flaws in that last post, it would hurt me to point them all out. Self adjustable suspensions? How about this? How many times has one been between heats, got bumped and had 20 minutes to the next race? he had to run the bit over the comm real quick, check his brushes, his solder, adjust his timing, break out the timing jig, align everything, put motor together, quick break in....THEN adjust whatever mightve gotten tweaked previously. The motor maintennance alone will eat up your pit time and other items that may need attention will be short changed---just for one to remain in the hunt and be fast. No one said brushed motors are junk, but that same arguement was used when electronic fuel injection came out.......or do you still have a car with a carberatour
08-28-2007, 02:22 PM
#48
ok,ok reading all the posts since my last one i just realized a couple things.
People will always want the easy way, so BL is easier and less maitenence, the common argument for this laziness is so people can spend more time on setting up there suspension and what not. what happens when someone comes up with a self adjusting suspension???? people who like to do it themselves will take flak from others.
Why dont people just race wal-mart r/c's???? no brushes on them, no comms to cut, and cheaper.
People who put Bl up on a pedastal, and think its the greatest ever, are guys who have to have the newest tech and think anything else is junk
People will always want the easy way, so BL is easier and less maitenence, the common argument for this laziness is so people can spend more time on setting up there suspension and what not. what happens when someone comes up with a self adjusting suspension???? people who like to do it themselves will take flak from others.
Why dont people just race wal-mart r/c's???? no brushes on them, no comms to cut, and cheaper.
People who put Bl up on a pedastal, and think its the greatest ever, are guys who have to have the newest tech and think anything else is junk
If walmart had such a car and performed more consistently than the current cars I would buy it. I think that you cannot beat the consistency of a BL system vs. a brushed motor.
08-28-2007, 02:29 PM
#50
You know what one of the coolest things is about BL? The respect they get from nitro dudes. When you slap an electric car down, and its fast, they laugh inside because they know that 8 mminutes later, its over, a wrap, finito. But when you put down a GTB/3.5 velociti, powered by a good lipo pack and you are hanging with them lap for lap, until they pit and you are still going and 20 minutes later, depending on your gearing, you may still have 5 minutes worth of juice to do a victory lap complete with NASCAR donuts..thats what BL brings to the fray. Can you even fathom that with brushed??!?!?!?
08-28-2007, 02:36 PM
#51
OK - I guess I have to elaborate:
You get beat by 27t stock and you are running a 6.5? Think you have to look at why you are running a modified motor with stock? They can go full tilt with no brakes and put down more consistant lap times while you punch, brake, punch, brake, hit a wall, punch, brake. Well, i dont know your driving style, but thats one thing I have seen.
No I didnt run directly against the stock guys. My conclusion was based my lap times in mod compared to those who ran stock. This is while running at a tight indoor track that I visit 2x a year. Maybe it wasnt most of them, but the top 3-4 for sure.
My main point is that the guys who are still running brushed stock are some of the best out there. And if they wanted, they could keep stock alive indefinately because all you need is 3 vehicles to make a class at most clubs.
I dont see one technology 'winning' over another at this point.
You get beat by 27t stock and you are running a 6.5? Think you have to look at why you are running a modified motor with stock? They can go full tilt with no brakes and put down more consistant lap times while you punch, brake, punch, brake, hit a wall, punch, brake. Well, i dont know your driving style, but thats one thing I have seen.
No I didnt run directly against the stock guys. My conclusion was based my lap times in mod compared to those who ran stock. This is while running at a tight indoor track that I visit 2x a year. Maybe it wasnt most of them, but the top 3-4 for sure.
My main point is that the guys who are still running brushed stock are some of the best out there. And if they wanted, they could keep stock alive indefinately because all you need is 3 vehicles to make a class at most clubs.
I dont see one technology 'winning' over another at this point.
08-28-2007, 02:37 PM
#52
BL and LI-PO are the future of racing.Everything gets better, carbon fiber took the place of fiberglass, composite carbon and aluminum arms took over weak flex plastic, rebuildable stock took over sealed cans, Aluminum bulkheads vs. plastic everything changes. We don't buy this crap and race because were going to get rich we get whatever it takes to win because all in all we ar glory hounds every stinkin' one of us want to beat the next guy just to say we did. So here it is...... if you wanna win run what the fast guys got or better..... or you might as well not do it at all cause you can lose with $20 nikko car from wally world and save yourself some money.
08-28-2007, 02:39 PM
#53
Everyone is entitled to enjoy this hobby/sport any way they want. If you like tuning and maintaining brushed motors, that's fine. If like the convienience of brushless, then that is fine as well. I don't think it really comes down to what is better, but rather what people prefer.
In some ways it's a lot like cooking. You can either cook up a $150 valued restraunt meal for you and your spouse or just go out to a fancy restraunt. If you enjoy the shopping, prep and cooking aspects of preparing a meal, then more power to you. I don't enjoy cooking or the clean-up. I just want to eat it.
Brushless will eventually superceed brushed in popularity. It's anyone's guess as to when. Some people won't be happy about it, but that's just the way it goes.
In some ways it's a lot like cooking. You can either cook up a $150 valued restraunt meal for you and your spouse or just go out to a fancy restraunt. If you enjoy the shopping, prep and cooking aspects of preparing a meal, then more power to you. I don't enjoy cooking or the clean-up. I just want to eat it.
Brushless will eventually superceed brushed in popularity. It's anyone's guess as to when. Some people won't be happy about it, but that's just the way it goes.
08-28-2007, 02:45 PM
#55
Ed, like I said, punch, brake, punch brake, tight winding track and stock will most certainly have better lap times. Have an extra motor? solder the wires with bullet connectors and its a simple swap for the next race, adjust your esc and your gone. brushed, change the motor, adjust your timing AND ensure you have enough brushes because different motors work different ways with certain brushes.
its not only what they fast guys have, its what it is. I got BL because I like runtime, torque and efficiency. HD, yes the work one puts into tuning a motor is great, but if you are looking to run that motor more than once in a day, that can be more than time consuming it can be a headache. Racedays are filled with head aches as it is, why add more? Knowing your motor will perform out the gate isnt just better (for me) is sensible. Hey, if you like all of the extra gear to lug and all of the equipment, good for you. drive on.
its not only what they fast guys have, its what it is. I got BL because I like runtime, torque and efficiency. HD, yes the work one puts into tuning a motor is great, but if you are looking to run that motor more than once in a day, that can be more than time consuming it can be a headache. Racedays are filled with head aches as it is, why add more? Knowing your motor will perform out the gate isnt just better (for me) is sensible. Hey, if you like all of the extra gear to lug and all of the equipment, good for you. drive on.
08-28-2007, 03:11 PM
#56
Dave, c'mon man, there are so many flaws in that last post, it would hurt me to point them all out. Self adjustable suspensions? How about this? How many times has one been between heats, got bumped and had 20 minutes to the next race? he had to run the bit over the comm real quick, check his brushes, his solder, adjust his timing, break out the timing jig, align everything, put motor together, quick break in....THEN adjust whatever mightve gotten tweaked previously. The motor maintennance alone will eat up your pit time and other items that may need attention will be short changed---just for one to remain in the hunt and be fast. No one said brushed motors are junk, but that same arguement was used when electronic fuel injection came out.......or do you still have a car with a carberatour
actually pitbull, i do!! I have a 1994 4runner with a chevy 350ci in it
and you seem to be the biggest poster boy for BL. you seem to beat down anything that has to do with brushed motors. comms,brushes,springs,cans.
im gonna leave it at, ill use brushed and you use brushless and we'll both be happy
08-28-2007, 03:17 PM
#57
That may be but to be able to run stock brushless with stock brushed there has to be some equivalence. ROAR won't combine them until there is and isn't likely to have 2 different classes for stock either.
08-28-2007, 05:48 PM
#58
Brushless will be the norm.........................when a brushed motor costs 20.00.
I would say that when all the Brushed motors are just about out of stock the transfer will be made.
It takes time to phase some thing out. The market has to demand it and then the manufacturers have to react to the demand. (It has to be close.)
Heres my fear when it happens. The consumer will have received its demands.
Then we will be faced with a 20.00 brushed stock or a 100.00 stock brushless.
The manufacturer will try to see how much a motor that can last over a year is really worth. They will test the waters we can be sure.
Lets hope Mr. Novak really does care more about us and the Hobby. I think he will be the biggest factor in the prices.? He has set the stage.
I would say that when all the Brushed motors are just about out of stock the transfer will be made.
It takes time to phase some thing out. The market has to demand it and then the manufacturers have to react to the demand. (It has to be close.)
Heres my fear when it happens. The consumer will have received its demands.
Then we will be faced with a 20.00 brushed stock or a 100.00 stock brushless.
The manufacturer will try to see how much a motor that can last over a year is really worth. They will test the waters we can be sure.
Lets hope Mr. Novak really does care more about us and the Hobby. I think he will be the biggest factor in the prices.? He has set the stage.
08-28-2007, 07:32 PM
#59
I think pricing is the key factor. When someone comes into the shop and I tell them how great brushless is, and then that a typical system is going to set them back close to $200 if not more, they either go with a $80 ESC and a $30 brushed motor (machine wound 10 turn or whatever) and go just as fast for about half the price, or they go nitro.
Obviously there are cheaper systems out there, but people want to buy what they see advertised, they want the systems from the Novak, the Trinity, the Tekin, and so on.
Ironically, the brushless quite possibly may be the cheaper buy in the long run, but you can't convince people of that when they are getting one for the first time. They want what is cheap now, not what is cheaper after 18 months of driving and burning through 3 or 4 brushed motors because they don't maintain them.
And, like everything else, the RTR/entry-level segment is what drives the hobby. Racing drives the technology but the sales go to the other end. Just like NASCAR or any racing series; you don't have the Dodge or Chevy racing engine in your car at home, but you might have bought the car because you were a fan of the race team (extreme example, I know). Sure there are 1% of the consumers out there who race cars for fun and buy the racing engines from those manufacturers, and those buyers are very demanding. But the companies are in the business of selling $15,000 cars, not $15,000 engines. Same holds true for RC... I don't have exact figures of course, but I suspect that for every FT TC5 that a company like Associated sells, they sell 3 or 4 RTR TC4s.
And those are the people who will keep brushed motors the standard for some time yet to come.
Obviously there are cheaper systems out there, but people want to buy what they see advertised, they want the systems from the Novak, the Trinity, the Tekin, and so on.
Ironically, the brushless quite possibly may be the cheaper buy in the long run, but you can't convince people of that when they are getting one for the first time. They want what is cheap now, not what is cheaper after 18 months of driving and burning through 3 or 4 brushed motors because they don't maintain them.
And, like everything else, the RTR/entry-level segment is what drives the hobby. Racing drives the technology but the sales go to the other end. Just like NASCAR or any racing series; you don't have the Dodge or Chevy racing engine in your car at home, but you might have bought the car because you were a fan of the race team (extreme example, I know). Sure there are 1% of the consumers out there who race cars for fun and buy the racing engines from those manufacturers, and those buyers are very demanding. But the companies are in the business of selling $15,000 cars, not $15,000 engines. Same holds true for RC... I don't have exact figures of course, but I suspect that for every FT TC5 that a company like Associated sells, they sell 3 or 4 RTR TC4s.
And those are the people who will keep brushed motors the standard for some time yet to come.
08-28-2007, 08:04 PM
#60
Im not really sure what the big issue is with BL being the norm or not. IF your club runs mod and loosely follows roar rules then both sides should be running together. BL vs BRushed. There is no issue at all.
ROAR MOD includes both brushed and brushless. So it will become the norm when more people buy into it. When guys start seeing BL guys running with or ahead of them during races and notice that while there cutting comms and sodlering in new brushes that the BL crew are eating a twinky and trying out a new setup on there car the natural thing to happen is more of the brushed guys will go to BL...
For me our club doesnt have the numbers for mod, even when we did it was weak. 19T was our biggest class when numbers where big, but now the club is at a low point but rebuilding. Our bread and butter class through out the last 10years or when ever touring cars started (HPI RS4 era) has always been stock.... At our club BL is a topic of discusion but the equivilancy issue is a problem. Because by ROAR definition there is no way a BL will ever be legal in stock. And since there is no STOCK BRUSHLESS ROAR rule or standard no motor builders are creating stock motors on the same level as there competators. So the 13.5 BL novak has 3 versions. 2 of wich most say is faster then brushed. Even if we just forget trying to make BL 13.5 equivilent to brushed roar stock and tried to just implement a BL stock class there are not rules or regulations to ensure all new 13.5 are playing by the same rules. A set of rules needs to be created for the next generation of STOCK. ROAR STOCK BRUSHLESS.
Have a visit at the thread i started. The first few pages are on topic and then it lost its way.... When reading the thread keep in mind its about stock racing not mod. Mod in my mind is 100% taken care off, its legal, let time go by and prices drop and brushless will take over.. Personally im waiting for a stock rule but more importantly a smaller footprint ESC. I have not seen an ESC take up that much chassis since the 80's!!
http://www.rctech.net/forum/showthread.php?t=168578
ROAR MOD includes both brushed and brushless. So it will become the norm when more people buy into it. When guys start seeing BL guys running with or ahead of them during races and notice that while there cutting comms and sodlering in new brushes that the BL crew are eating a twinky and trying out a new setup on there car the natural thing to happen is more of the brushed guys will go to BL...
For me our club doesnt have the numbers for mod, even when we did it was weak. 19T was our biggest class when numbers where big, but now the club is at a low point but rebuilding. Our bread and butter class through out the last 10years or when ever touring cars started (HPI RS4 era) has always been stock.... At our club BL is a topic of discusion but the equivilancy issue is a problem. Because by ROAR definition there is no way a BL will ever be legal in stock. And since there is no STOCK BRUSHLESS ROAR rule or standard no motor builders are creating stock motors on the same level as there competators. So the 13.5 BL novak has 3 versions. 2 of wich most say is faster then brushed. Even if we just forget trying to make BL 13.5 equivilent to brushed roar stock and tried to just implement a BL stock class there are not rules or regulations to ensure all new 13.5 are playing by the same rules. A set of rules needs to be created for the next generation of STOCK. ROAR STOCK BRUSHLESS.
Have a visit at the thread i started. The first few pages are on topic and then it lost its way.... When reading the thread keep in mind its about stock racing not mod. Mod in my mind is 100% taken care off, its legal, let time go by and prices drop and brushless will take over.. Personally im waiting for a stock rule but more importantly a smaller footprint ESC. I have not seen an ESC take up that much chassis since the 80's!!
http://www.rctech.net/forum/showthread.php?t=168578