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Old 08-28-2007, 09:06 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by futureal View Post
I think pricing is the key factor. When someone comes into the shop and I tell them how great brushless is, and then that a typical system is going to set them back close to $200 if not more, they either go with a $80 ESC and a $30 brushed motor (machine wound 10 turn or whatever) and go just as fast for about half the price, or they go nitro.

Obviously there are cheaper systems out there, but people want to buy what they see advertised, they want the systems from the Novak, the Trinity, the Tekin, and so on.

Ironically, the brushless quite possibly may be the cheaper buy in the long run, but you can't convince people of that when they are getting one for the first time. They want what is cheap now, not what is cheaper after 18 months of driving and burning through 3 or 4 brushed motors because they don't maintain them.

And, like everything else, the RTR/entry-level segment is what drives the hobby. Racing drives the technology but the sales go to the other end. Just like NASCAR or any racing series; you don't have the Dodge or Chevy racing engine in your car at home, but you might have bought the car because you were a fan of the race team (extreme example, I know). Sure there are 1% of the consumers out there who race cars for fun and buy the racing engines from those manufacturers, and those buyers are very demanding. But the companies are in the business of selling $15,000 cars, not $15,000 engines. Same holds true for RC... I don't have exact figures of course, but I suspect that for every FT TC5 that a company like Associated sells, they sell 3 or 4 RTR TC4s.

And those are the people who will keep brushed motors the standard for some time yet to come.
I believe what you say is true. And a great indicator the brushless price will remain competitive for a while. Right now the price is pretty fair for a brushless. Well to any one who has raced for any length of time.
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Old 08-28-2007, 09:36 PM   #62
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actually pitbull, i do!! I have a 1994 4runner with a chevy 350ci in it That is weird.lol A Japanese truck with an American engine

and you seem to be the biggest poster boy for BL. you seem to beat down anything that has to do with brushed motors. comms,brushes,springs,cans.

Not beat it down, just accentuating the positive of brushless. If it makes brushed look bad, sorry.

im gonna leave it at, ill use brushed and you use brushless and we'll both be happy
Ditto. You are one that enjoys the maintennance and if that floats your boat, cool. people need to know the essence of the hobby, carry the torch to bridge the divide between old and new. Drive on.

Posterboy? Was that a stab
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Old 08-29-2007, 05:42 AM   #63
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The main thing is that clubs recognised brushed and brushless technology are both going to be here for a long time yet.

Sedan racing turnout in general (imho) is in decline since 3300 cells came out. You may think thats a bold statement to make, but the cost is rising if you race brushed and want to stay at the top (brushes, lathe etc) and can be an expensive outlay for a newcomer to swallow if they buy a brushless setup.

There are pro's and con's to everything in life. I race to my ability, not my pocket (its moth eaten anyway with a wife and son to think about ).

Ive had an r/c car of some sort for about 12 or 13 years, loved it, hated it and just got on with it at times.... but im still racing now
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Old 08-29-2007, 08:07 AM   #64
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Does anyone here have a MX background? I see so many similarities between the brushed/brushless debate, and the 2 stroke/ 4 stroke controversies. Back when 4 strokes first came out, they allowed (and still do) both technologies to run together. If you had a preference, simply run what you like. There are obvious advantages to running 4 strokes, and some feel there is an advantage to running 2 stroke. If you were being left behind on that long uphill climb, simply change and adapt to that technology. There are people, James Stewart comes to mind, which ran the older less powerful technology and WAXED even the best of the best 125 riders of the time. The same till be true for those good R/Cers.

The argument is essentially the same for the power argument for brushless vs. bushed. The brushless has just a bit more power, and won’t fade at the end of the race as brushless motors do. On the opposite side, brushless motors tend to be a little more drivable, as the deceleration is a little more consonant, and you’re not relying on software to provide that break drag for you.

My opinion is that we should look to the much more popular and successful industries to see how they made the change, and adapted the racing programs to accommodate new technologies. They let both run in the same class, against each other. Let the participants decide what they like, and what they purchase next season. Just look at how MX has grown over the past 4-5 years.
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Old 08-29-2007, 08:15 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by beavis353 View Post
Does anyone here have a MX background? I see so many similarities between the brushed/brushless debate, and the 2 stroke/ 4 stroke controversies. Back when 4 strokes first came out, they allowed (and still do) both technologies to run together. If you had a preference, simply run what you like. There are obvious advantages to running 4 strokes, and some feel there is an advantage to running 2 stroke. If you were being left behind on that long uphill climb, simply change and adapt to that technology. There are people, James Stewart comes to mind, which ran the older less powerful technology and WAXED even the best of the best 125 riders of the time. The same till be true for those good R/Cers.

The argument is essentially the same for the power argument for brushless vs. bushed. The brushless has just a bit more power, and won’t fade at the end of the race as brushless motors do. On the opposite side, brushless motors tend to be a little more drivable, as the deceleration is a little more consonant, and you’re not relying on software to provide that break drag for you.

My opinion is that we should look to the much more popular and successful industries to see how they made the change, and adapted the racing programs to accommodate new technologies. They let both run in the same class, against each other. Let the participants decide what they like, and what they purchase next season. Just look at how MX has grown over the past 4-5 years.

I have to agree, im not even sure why there is any argument with regards to brushless and brushed in mod classes???? Both are mod motors even ROAR agrees..

The only topic for debate is the spec or stock classes like 19T and 27T. 27T being the bread and butter of rc racing for as long as i can remember and 19T being the nice balance between too fast mod and not fast enough stock. For me the debate is because 19T and 27T are considred spec or stock how do u move to the next generation brushless when there is no specs or rules to ensure someone level playing field in the brushless stock classes.

Brushless will become the norm its not hard to see that, the benefits are huge... Mod racers have it made....
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Old 08-29-2007, 08:17 AM   #66
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Last edited by beavis353; 08-29-2007 at 09:37 AM.
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Old 08-29-2007, 08:20 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by beavis353 View Post
Does anyone here have a MX background? I see so many similarities between the brushed/brushless debate, and the 2 stroke/ 4 stroke controversies. Back when 4 strokes first came out, they allowed (and still do) both technologies to run together. If you had a preference, simply run what you like. There are obvious advantages to running 4 strokes, and some feel there is an advantage to running 2 stroke. If you were being left behind on that long uphill climb, simply change and adapt to that technology. There are people, James Stewart comes to mind, which ran the older less powerful technology and WAXED even the best of the best 125 riders of the time. The same till be true for those good R/Cers.

The argument is essentially the same for the power argument for brushless vs. bushed. The brushless has just a bit more power, and won’t fade at the end of the race as brushless motors do. On the opposite side, brushless motors tend to be a little more drivable, as the deceleration is a little more consonant, and you’re not relying on software to provide that break drag for you.

My opinion is that we should look to the much more popular and successful industries to see how they made the change, and adapted the racing programs to accommodate new technologies. They let both run in the same class, against each other. Let the participants decide what they like, and what they purchase next season. Just look at how MX has grown over the past 4-5 years.
there must be an echo in here. what's up Justin
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Old 08-29-2007, 08:28 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by beavis353 View Post
Does anyone here have a MX background? I see so many similarities between the brushed/brushless debate, and the 2 stroke/ 4 stroke controversies. Back when 4 strokes first came out, they allowed (and still do) both technologies to run together. If you had a preference, simply run what you like. There are obvious advantages to running 4 strokes, and some feel there is an advantage to running 2 stroke. If you were being left behind on that long uphill climb, simply change and adapt to that technology. There are people, James Stewart comes to mind, which ran the older less powerful technology and WAXED even the best of the best 125 riders of the time. The same till be true for those good R/Cers.

The argument is essentially the same for the power argument for brushless vs. bushed. The brushless has just a bit more power, and won’t fade at the end of the race as brushless motors do. On the opposite side, brushless motors tend to be a little more drivable, as the deceleration is a little more consonant, and you’re not relying on software to provide that break drag for you. HUH? Which motor fades and which doesnt, in your opinion?

My opinion is that we should look to the much more popular and successful industries to see how they made the change, and adapted the racing programs to accommodate new technologies. They let both run in the same class, against each other. Let the participants decide what they like, and what they purchase next season. Just look at how MX has grown over the past 4-5 years.
Why the double post?
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Old 08-29-2007, 09:30 AM   #69
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pitbull, brushless may work for some but i can tune my brushed very well. so thats why im not going to the otherside. like i said before we are all r/c drivers so i dont like arguing about this cause its gonna cause a big divide in what should be a collective group of people helping people. and i do respect your ideas and comments on bl, but im the kinda guy who hates it when the new thing is being shoved at me.
P.S. ive never owned a fuel injected car cause you cant tune them like a carb.
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Old 08-29-2007, 09:48 AM   #70
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pitbull, brushless may work for some but i can tune my brushed very well. so thats why im not going to the otherside. like i said before we are all r/c drivers so i dont like arguing about this cause its gonna cause a big divide in what should be a collective group of people helping people. and i do respect your ideas and comments on bl, but im the kinda guy who hates it when the new thing is being shoved at me.
P.S. ive never owned a fuel injected car cause you cant tune them like a carb.
Coming from your angle, I respect that. Different strokes for different folks. Many areas in nyc are nitro infested and if you want to slap it down on the club level, you are thrown in with the wolves. brushed doesnt give me the run times I need to put the nitro dudes in their place, so BL it is. You may be a relic, but you bring good points of validity. Now, pop in an 8 track and tune that 4 Runner. Just kidding.
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Old 08-29-2007, 09:51 AM   #71
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Why the double post?
Im not sure anyone really does this on purpose do they?

To answer the other question, brushed motors fade on the acceleration side at the end of the run, where brushless motors dont as much.

Brushless motors fade a bit on how they deaccelerate from the beginning of the run to the end of the run, especially with 4wd or sedan which create a lot of heat. If you set your "drag" at 6 blinks when the system is cold, it will act like 4 blinks when everything is hot.

The power band for brushless is a lottle more erratic than brushed also, especially for 2wd mod, or 1/12th mod. There are advantages both ways in my opinion.

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Old 08-29-2007, 10:19 AM   #72
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I dont know about the fading BL theory. If one gears properly, uses quality cells and has their car set-up properly, cant say that fade will be that noticeable with BL. brushes on the other hand, slight gearing change, external heat, mal-adjusted timing, issues with springs, can cause brush motor fade. I dont know about powerband being erratic. My Novak sweetspots are pretty much easy to find. Use the template they provide, monitor your temps and adjust from their. If you are running hot after two minutes, add teeth to the pinion. Running well under 160 and want more top end, add a few teeth. kind of cut and dry.
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Old 08-29-2007, 12:18 PM   #73
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hey all:I read the article todd hodge wrote about the '07 reedy race and this line jumped out at me,"This year in the Invitational Class 5 Cells was mandatory. For me this was awesome as it forced everyone to use brushless." Question why does he think brushless is needed or better for 5 cell racing?Thanks for the info
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Old 08-29-2007, 12:31 PM   #74
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hey all:I read the article todd hodge wrote about the '07 reedy race and this line jumped out at me,"This year in the Invitational Class 5 Cells was mandatory. For me this was awesome as it forced everyone to use brushless." Question why does he think brushless is needed or better for 5 cell racing?Thanks for the info
I wont say everyone. The latest car action, they entered the Mi3 and ran in it with a 19T reedy motor...brushed.

Because of the efficiency of brushless, you can gear up, get the same type speeds without putting a beating on your electronics. In addition, the cars are more stable (so I've heard), enabling drivers to make better lap times. This rings true for modified on larger tracks.
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Old 08-29-2007, 01:20 PM   #75
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the person who started this forums stured up a ants nest
first in the near future brushless will be the norm just like how vcrs are fading and dvds are taking over,and at our club we all started out using brushed motors it only took one man to changed now no one runs a brushed motor,every body runs bL expensive to start out with but in the long run it pays off and let me just say it is hell to keep up with the man running bL and yes you do run with gas cars.
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