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Old 08-11-2007, 02:43 AM   #1
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Anyone Tried 13.5 Sintered Against 19t?

The general consensus appears to be that 10.5 has an advantage against 19t, enven in Bonded form.

How does the 13.5 Sintered compare against 19t for performance?

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Old 08-11-2007, 03:55 AM   #2
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The 13.5 is a bit slower.
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Old 08-11-2007, 03:59 AM   #3
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would not agree my 13.5 sintered is way quicker than 19 turn when geared correctly
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Old 08-11-2007, 04:03 AM   #4
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correct me if i wrong i think the Novak 13.5 speed is about 23t brush speed not 27t brush speed. they not faster than 19t brush i think they just more consistent power delivery, punch, and less heat than brush motor
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Old 08-11-2007, 04:11 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Guo Chean View Post
correct me if i wrong i think the Novak 13.5 speed is about 23t brush speed not 27t brush speed. they not faster than 19t brush i think they just more consistent power delivery, punch, and less heat than brush motor
The 13.5 Bonded is supposed to be 23t, but the Sintered version, while having the same rev's, has 30W more power, surely this means higher torque, meaning the car can geared taller and hence have more speed.

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Old 08-11-2007, 04:38 AM   #6
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I know a lot of guys don't like to see 'OVAL' results when comparing motors, but since it's a lot easier to have smooth, consistant lap times on oval, compared to other types of racing....it actually makes for a great way to compare motor performance.

Here's the track records from Freddie's Hobbies Asphalt Oval track after the ARCOR WORLDS Oval Race on July 4th weekend.

Stock Alan Behler 33 Laps in 4:01.60

19t Zach Messenger 37 Laps in 4:00.04

13.5 Jamie Hanson 37 Laps in 4:00.35


4300 (10.5) Jamie Hanson 40 Laps in 4:06.81

BL Modified Phil Marabella 43 Laps in 4:03.17

Brushed Modified Mario Marsilio 44 Laps in 4:06.43

You can see just how close the 13.5 was vs. the 19t class on this WIDE OPEN 420 ft. Oval track. As well as how much quicker the 10.5 (4300) motor was. Also note - the BRUSHED MOD motor ran quicker than the B/L motor did (but we've seen this all year long with a Brushed guy as long as he's got a MOTOR builder 'at the track'.
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Old 08-11-2007, 08:03 AM   #7
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We have a big outdoor on-road course and brushless 19t have yet to when a race against the guys running 19t brushed motors. Brushless might have the advantage on tight courses but not on wide open tracks.
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Old 08-11-2007, 08:23 AM   #8
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I came to a conclusion late last night while racing. I copied this from a post I posted earlier this morning.

For the last six months I've been running 13.5 Brushless telling guys that it is eqaul to a stock motor. Tonight it was clear that a 13.5 will easily beat a tuned stock motor. Everyone was on fire tonight with the 13.5s. It almost seemed like everyone was running 19T. The guys that ran tuned stock motors were getting left behind on the straight. In infield was even worse for the stock motor guys. Stock motor cannot compete with 13.5 motors. I have now seen the differance in the two. Before we geared the 13.5 to the moon. Tonight we geared beyond pluto. I needed bigger pinions and didn't have them.

Now I read your questioning the 13.5 motor comparison's to the stock motor. I see some guys swear that its equal to a stock motor. Clearly it is not. I've been running a 13.5 sintered rotor brushless system with weighted down Li-Po for the last six months and noticed its consistency thoughout the run and super fast punch upon initial takeoff. However the top end was a tiny bit slower than NiMh cars with brushless. I think that is what makes the general public think that Li-Po is quicker. When I went back to my NIMh my car had tons of speed over other cars. I practiced and played with the gearing while running Li-Po for six months. Some of the faster guys were telling me to gear taller than I was at. I was afraid to termal for the longest time. I took them up on their advise and my car was running as if had a 19T in it. From this day on, I can't say that a stock motor is comparable to a 13.5. I can't say it more simple. "it is NOT".

Li-Po is good to practice with and not have to worry about conditioning batteries. If Li-Po is really that much faster than NiMH, ask yourself. How many pro guys run Li-Po for racing or practice? I don't have 15 sets of batteries so LI-pos are good for just that, practice.

Just my opinion.
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Old 08-11-2007, 09:50 AM   #9
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That post is interesting...

We too are debating about 13.5 and stock... We tested the bonded only and my laptime went from 9.6 to 9.30... So for me there was a difference and I was running a good stocker. Now with Sintred... It will probably be worst.

So maybe we (at our track) sould reconsider our 19T Foam class to allow the 13.5? I beleive the degree of acceptence would be better since its already a litle bit slower...

There is so much confusion at our track right now I hope we will find a spot for those BL preatty soon
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Old 08-11-2007, 12:41 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stratus Racer View Post
I came to a conclusion late last night while racing. I copied this from a post I posted earlier this morning.

For the last six months I've been running 13.5 Brushless telling guys that it is eqaul to a stock motor. Tonight it was clear that a 13.5 will easily beat a tuned stock motor. Everyone was on fire tonight with the 13.5s. It almost seemed like everyone was running 19T. The guys that ran tuned stock motors were getting left behind on the straight. In infield was even worse for the stock motor guys. Stock motor cannot compete with 13.5 motors. I have now seen the differance in the two. Before we geared the 13.5 to the moon. Tonight we geared beyond pluto. I needed bigger pinions and didn't have them.

Now I read your questioning the 13.5 motor comparison's to the stock motor. I see some guys swear that its equal to a stock motor. Clearly it is not. I've been running a 13.5 sintered rotor brushless system with weighted down Li-Po for the last six months and noticed its consistency thoughout the run and super fast punch upon initial takeoff. However the top end was a tiny bit slower than NiMh cars with brushless. I think that is what makes the general public think that Li-Po is quicker. When I went back to my NIMh my car had tons of speed over other cars. I practiced and played with the gearing while running Li-Po for six months. Some of the faster guys were telling me to gear taller than I was at. I was afraid to termal for the longest time. I took them up on their advise and my car was running as if had a 19T in it. From this day on, I can't say that a stock motor is comparable to a 13.5. I can't say it more simple. "it is NOT".

Li-Po is good to practice with and not have to worry about conditioning batteries. If Li-Po is really that much faster than NiMH, ask yourself. How many pro guys run Li-Po for racing or practice? I don't have 15 sets of batteries so LI-pos are good for just that, practice.

Just my opinion.
Well, to be honest, I don't remember ANYONE actually claiming the 13.5 is EQUAL to a stocker, just CLOSE to them. And personally, I know the only way it's even close is when running the bonded rotor, with sintered it's no contest. Now, before you start in with the wattage numbers & whatnot, let me tell you why it's closer with bonded, while it CAN make more power than a brushed stock, that doesn't always mean you can USE it, with bonded rotors, when you gear it for speed, at most tracks it will run too hot & do a thermal shutdown(as it does at my local track), so you have to gear it more conservatively & once you do, brushed stockers end up on a more even keel with them. Even with the isntered rotor, I firmly believe that the 13.5 is closest to a 23 turn brushed(& btw, competition 23 turn motors are actually VERY close to the performance of a 19 turn, we learned about them here from the Tamiya 23 turn motors used in the TCS Nats, stout little motors, & the other brands of them might be even better), & I honestly would have no problem letting brushed motor racers use a 23 turn alongside those of us who want to use the 13.5 with sintered rotors....
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Old 08-11-2007, 01:32 PM   #11
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..and on the mention of LIPO being 'faster' than NIMH -

I guess that would be in what configuration is it faster?

for instance in using a 3200 Peak/Orion type pack vs a 4800 Peak/Orion type pack vs a NIMH 6 cell pack

If using the 3200 pack vs a 4200 NIMH - the NIMH would probably have a VOLTAGE advantage, at least up front in the run. It would have a stronger PUNCH value, but a wider discharge curve vs. the 3200 LIPO from what we've tested and seen.

On the same note - the 4800 LIPO vs the 4200 NIMH - the LIPO would most likely have the VOLTAGE advantage...due to the PARALLEL wiring of the LIPO cells causing less voltage drop/amperage load per cell in the LIPO pack - thus allowing a higher VOLTAGE output. So it would probably produce a higher overall run voltage vs the 6 cell NIMH 4200.

Any other LIPO types would depend on how they are configured and how many cells were put together to make the pack chosen to run...

(PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I'm INCORRECT)
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Old 08-11-2007, 02:03 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzbob View Post
Well, to be honest, I don't remember ANYONE actually claiming the 13.5 is EQUAL to a stocker, just CLOSE to them. And personally, I know the only way it's even close is when running the bonded rotor, with sintered it's no contest. Now, before you start in with the wattage numbers & whatnot, let me tell you why it's closer with bonded, while it CAN make more power than a brushed stock, that doesn't always mean you can USE it, with bonded rotors, when you gear it for speed, at most tracks it will run too hot & do a thermal shutdown(as it does at my local track), so you have to gear it more conservatively & once you do, brushed stockers end up on a more even keel with them. Even with the isntered rotor, I firmly believe that the 13.5 is closest to a 23 turn brushed(& btw, competition 23 turn motors are actually VERY close to the performance of a 19 turn, we learned about them here from the Tamiya 23 turn motors used in the TCS Nats, stout little motors, & the other brands of them might be even better), & I honestly would have no problem letting brushed motor racers use a 23 turn alongside those of us who want to use the 13.5 with sintered rotors....
Regardless if you haven't heard ANYONE, I have. This is one example that comes to mind really quick. Just so you know. The comparison is really bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gee-dub View Post
that's great news. hopefully the losi will be out by then.

question regarding brushless: will the 4300 (stock) and 5800 (19t?) be allowed to compete in the corresponding brushed classes if there are not enough for separate classes? i think with a new car i will be ready to commit to brushless as well. the equality and lack of maintenance associated with brushless will hopefully make it the popular choice.

thanks, gw
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Originally Posted by Stratus Racer View Post
The 4300 is closer to 19T. 13.5 is closer to stock. The 5800 is closer to 17T. Just so you know.
Joe I don't know if it applies in oval or not. In TC racing The Li-po has a consistent run and initial throtle is insane but limited to top end speed. On NiMH you can charge at 3-4 amps and get run time. At 5-7 you get speed right. I buy new cells to race. I can cruise 9learn track/practice) with old packs. LI-po only charge at what the battery capacity is rated. Is there a differance? I don't know, so I am asking.

Thanks for your input on this and please disregard PM.
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Old 08-11-2007, 02:48 PM   #13
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Paco,

As is recommended by Orion and Kokam, we've been charging the 3200 Carbon Lipo's at 2c or upto 6.4 amps.

Some of the guys have chargers that won't go that high and only charge at around 5 - 6 amps and have had no issues.

We were charging at the min. 3.2 amps and they do take a while to charge....but you can get really inexpensive chargers that will charge at that rate (for budget minded racers) and as long as you have 20-25 minutes between heats you won't really have an issue from what we've seen.

(NOTE: this is for OVAL - hopefully we'll have a LOCAL race program going again ReALLY SOON and be able to get some local data for B/L stuff and LIPO stuff too w/ TC's.) I was hoping we'd be able to have our first deal this weekend but it didn't work out - (to many unresolved issues)

We do have a NEW WebSite we'll have news and info on hopefully soon for our LOCAL deal and we have a NEW local Sponsor to help us out.

http://www.centralcoastrcracing.com

McDonald's of NIPOMO CA will be giving us enough backing to cover most of our needed expenses to get back up and running (Thanks to TED and CHERYL's McDonald's of NIPOMO) Ted has been a LONG TIME R/C Racer and supporter here on the Central Coast.
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Old 08-11-2007, 03:51 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by SWTour View Post
Paco,

As is recommended by Orion and Kokam, we've been charging the 3200 Carbon Lipo's at 2c or upto 6.4 amps....
My charger chooses the charge rate for Li-Po on its own. I don't have an option for Li-Po. Electri-Fly Tri-Ton 2. Thanks again.
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Old 08-11-2007, 04:33 PM   #15
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You can't really make a comparison between brushless and brushed accross different classes. When the motor companies refer to brushed-equivalents, they are usually intending this to refer to touring and off-road classes.

Sure, a sintered 13.5 may be equivalent to a 19t in oval and 1/12 on-road, but it is certainly not equivalent in touring (when you compare it to a properly built, properly geared 19t). In touring, being on and off the throttle, running drag brake, etc, heats up the brushless motors a lot quicker than the smooth, wide lines and lower # of cells from oval racing, and it causes them to run and be geared differently in these cars.

I believe it was someone from Novak who came on here one time and said something along the lines of 'please don't blame us for not designing a motor as bad and inefficient as a brushed motor'...I'll have to try to find that post because I think it had some good info in it!

13.5's used to be really close to stock motors before sintered rotors came along...the bonded rotors would get hot and prevent you from gearing them to their full potential! I can't blame Novak for releasing the "pro" versions with sintered rotors, though - they were probably having lots of CS complaints and bad publicity from the bonded motors shutting down (because they were nice enough to equip their ESC's with a motor temp cutoff). By the time sintered stuff came around, the "13.5 as stock" ball was already rolling and there was no stopping it.

The closest comparison I have ever seen in a spec-type class with brushed and BL is between sintered 10.5's and 19t motors in touring on asphalt.

All in all, brushed motor X will never be the true equivalent to brushless motor Y. X may have equivalent lap times to Y in 6-cell touring on asphalt, but it could be 1 tenth faster on 6-cell touring on carpet and 3 tenths faster in oval.
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